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	<title>Comments on: A Modest Proposal</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right, I suspected Hanson did somewhere, just that it was independent of his forecast.

What is your definition of &quot;capitalist development&quot;? What do you think of the idea that capitalist development may simply be a way of mutilating individual people into cells or parts and incorporating them into a larger group entity or organism, with money serving as the organizing lifeblood of this larger organism?

Also, what is your definition of &quot;intelligence&quot;? If money is ultimately just the organizing lifeblood of a larger group entity or organism, what does it mean to say that it &quot;converges with intelligence&quot;? Wouldn&#039;t it just be like pheromones or electrical signals or something? Do pheromones or electrical signals in and of themselves constitute intelligence?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, I suspected Hanson did somewhere, just that it was independent of his forecast.</p>
<p>What is your definition of &#8220;capitalist development&#8221;? What do you think of the idea that capitalist development may simply be a way of mutilating individual people into cells or parts and incorporating them into a larger group entity or organism, with money serving as the organizing lifeblood of this larger organism?</p>
<p>Also, what is your definition of &#8220;intelligence&#8221;? If money is ultimately just the organizing lifeblood of a larger group entity or organism, what does it mean to say that it &#8220;converges with intelligence&#8221;? Wouldn&#8217;t it just be like pheromones or electrical signals or something? Do pheromones or electrical signals in and of themselves constitute intelligence?</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ John
&quot;Don’t cosmopolitan environments require some sort of imperial force that imposes some degree of thought-control, the dismantling of some degree of the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and public superstitions to exist in the first place?&quot; 
That&#039;s a technically well-constructed question, and it sounds as if it should be overwhelmingly convincing, but I&#039;m not sure that it&#039;s really compelling. The obvious counter-example is Hong Kong, but almost any historical instance of a thriving commercial metropolis would do. Even if -- in principle -- catallactic order presupposes (i.e. rests upon) an underlying order of a harsher kind, there doesn&#039;t seem to be any evidence suggesting that an unusual super-abundance of deep-level or aboriginal anti-commercial traits correlates with exceptional commercial flourishing. (Comparatively draconian societies tend to remain draconian, poor, and backward.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ John<br />
&#8220;Don’t cosmopolitan environments require some sort of imperial force that imposes some degree of thought-control, the dismantling of some degree of the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and public superstitions to exist in the first place?&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s a technically well-constructed question, and it sounds as if it should be overwhelmingly convincing, but I&#8217;m not sure that it&#8217;s really compelling. The obvious counter-example is Hong Kong, but almost any historical instance of a thriving commercial metropolis would do. Even if &#8212; in principle &#8212; catallactic order presupposes (i.e. rests upon) an underlying order of a harsher kind, there doesn&#8217;t seem to be any evidence suggesting that an unusual super-abundance of deep-level or aboriginal anti-commercial traits correlates with exceptional commercial flourishing. (Comparatively draconian societies tend to remain draconian, poor, and backward.)</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hanson does have a utilitarian ethics argument for the ems world, based on the fact that 10 billion humans x 1 util amounts to less aggregate existential affirmation than 10,000,000,000,001 ems grinding away in the mind-mills at 0.0001 utils each. 

Under conditions of capitalist development, money converges with intelligence (which is perhaps not so far from &#039;lifeblood&#039;). In the ems world, as in innumerable other techno-commercial futures, this convergence approximates to identity: the wealth of a corporation is the intelligence it can afford.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hanson does have a utilitarian ethics argument for the ems world, based on the fact that 10 billion humans x 1 util amounts to less aggregate existential affirmation than 10,000,000,000,001 ems grinding away in the mind-mills at 0.0001 utils each. </p>
<p>Under conditions of capitalist development, money converges with intelligence (which is perhaps not so far from &#8216;lifeblood&#8217;). In the ems world, as in innumerable other techno-commercial futures, this convergence approximates to identity: the wealth of a corporation is the intelligence it can afford.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know that Hanson necessarily argues that what he forecasts will be a good thing. He may do that elsewhere, but where I&#039;ve seen him make the forecast, he doesn&#039;t make any normative claims about it. He simply makes the forecast based on technological development and basic economic concepts such as the profit motive and supply and demand. Simulated brains will be put to economically valuable tasks that, at some point in the curve of increasing cost performance of computation, will replace people that have become parts of something larger than themselves i.e. an incorporated group entity called &quot;the economy&quot;. Such parts can be replaced by cheaper parts. 

This is interesting, because perhaps it reveals that capitalism is simply a way of mutilating individual people into cells or parts and incorporating them into a larger group entity or organism, with money serving as the organizing lifeblood of this larger organism. Is this true? If so, is it good?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that Hanson necessarily argues that what he forecasts will be a good thing. He may do that elsewhere, but where I&#8217;ve seen him make the forecast, he doesn&#8217;t make any normative claims about it. He simply makes the forecast based on technological development and basic economic concepts such as the profit motive and supply and demand. Simulated brains will be put to economically valuable tasks that, at some point in the curve of increasing cost performance of computation, will replace people that have become parts of something larger than themselves i.e. an incorporated group entity called &#8220;the economy&#8221;. Such parts can be replaced by cheaper parts. </p>
<p>This is interesting, because perhaps it reveals that capitalism is simply a way of mutilating individual people into cells or parts and incorporating them into a larger group entity or organism, with money serving as the organizing lifeblood of this larger organism. Is this true? If so, is it good?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t cosmopolitan environments require some sort of imperial force that imposes some degree of thought-control, the dismantling of some degree of the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and public superstitions to exist in the first place?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t cosmopolitan environments require some sort of imperial force that imposes some degree of thought-control, the dismantling of some degree of the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and public superstitions to exist in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2386</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good catch.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good catch.</p>
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		<title>By: Federico</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2376</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Federico]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Political externalities of immigration also exist outside elections. &lt;a href=&quot;http://studiolo.cortediurbino.org/controlling-the-state/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;H. Scott Gordon&lt;/a&gt; clarifies that, especially in a desirable polity, power is plural in numerous ways, &lt;i&gt;e.g.&lt;/i&gt; through jury nullification, riots and refusal of police to enforce the law. Elites are loosely constrained by this threat of extra-judicial, countervailing power; they refer to it when something isn&#039;t considered &quot;politically feasible&quot;.

If &lt;i&gt;e.g.&lt;/i&gt; a UK conservative administration were to announce a sudden face-off with the Cathedral—&quot;We wish to abolish the NHS within five years&quot;—there would undoubtedly be enormous extra-legal ramifications. A large segment of the elite would stir up riots, violence and mortal threats. And in America, the recent talk of gun law reform was an elbow in the water; were it tepid, the Obama administration would have steamed ahead and abolished the right to bear arms. That riots and extra-judicial coercion are rare does not mean that they are unimportant to politics.

Riots are rare in the West is because elites know better, and have little incentive to stride over the invisible line. I think 1960s American political life was bizarre precisely because, due to a radical upwelling of impatience, this undercurrent of coercive game theory dramatically surfaced. The line moved beneath the older, relatively conservative elites&#039; feet, and being tolerant of countervailing power they chose not to violently repress the movement. The SOPA protests are a recent example of effectual, extra-judicial politics.

The position of these invisible lines is not identical to explicit law and political structure, although there is a strong relationship. To transform America from its current ethnic make-up to this third-worldish populace of 1.6 billion is to move the line, even if there were no universal-suffrage elections. Immigration is always a serious political externality, if not necessarily a bad one.

Also consider that in seemingly any polity, there is far from total private ownership of land. Can one imagine an England in which London, Portsmouth, the sea and The North are all privately owned by some person or corporation, who may dispose of the property as he would his house or car? Coercive game theory and economic efficiency both provide strong prudential reasons why this cannot be so. Therefore, there is not a choice between free-market immigration and statist border control, but merely two ways in which the state might dispose of its realm. One can scarcely express preferences about &lt;i&gt;e.g.&lt;/i&gt; overpopulation, except through border control. Again, regardless of welfare democracy, this implies no automatic presumption in favour of open borders.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Political externalities of immigration also exist outside elections. <a href="http://studiolo.cortediurbino.org/controlling-the-state/" rel="nofollow">H. Scott Gordon</a> clarifies that, especially in a desirable polity, power is plural in numerous ways, <i>e.g.</i> through jury nullification, riots and refusal of police to enforce the law. Elites are loosely constrained by this threat of extra-judicial, countervailing power; they refer to it when something isn&#8217;t considered &#8220;politically feasible&#8221;.</p>
<p>If <i>e.g.</i> a UK conservative administration were to announce a sudden face-off with the Cathedral—&#8221;We wish to abolish the NHS within five years&#8221;—there would undoubtedly be enormous extra-legal ramifications. A large segment of the elite would stir up riots, violence and mortal threats. And in America, the recent talk of gun law reform was an elbow in the water; were it tepid, the Obama administration would have steamed ahead and abolished the right to bear arms. That riots and extra-judicial coercion are rare does not mean that they are unimportant to politics.</p>
<p>Riots are rare in the West is because elites know better, and have little incentive to stride over the invisible line. I think 1960s American political life was bizarre precisely because, due to a radical upwelling of impatience, this undercurrent of coercive game theory dramatically surfaced. The line moved beneath the older, relatively conservative elites&#8217; feet, and being tolerant of countervailing power they chose not to violently repress the movement. The SOPA protests are a recent example of effectual, extra-judicial politics.</p>
<p>The position of these invisible lines is not identical to explicit law and political structure, although there is a strong relationship. To transform America from its current ethnic make-up to this third-worldish populace of 1.6 billion is to move the line, even if there were no universal-suffrage elections. Immigration is always a serious political externality, if not necessarily a bad one.</p>
<p>Also consider that in seemingly any polity, there is far from total private ownership of land. Can one imagine an England in which London, Portsmouth, the sea and The North are all privately owned by some person or corporation, who may dispose of the property as he would his house or car? Coercive game theory and economic efficiency both provide strong prudential reasons why this cannot be so. Therefore, there is not a choice between free-market immigration and statist border control, but merely two ways in which the state might dispose of its realm. One can scarcely express preferences about <i>e.g.</i> overpopulation, except through border control. Again, regardless of welfare democracy, this implies no automatic presumption in favour of open borders.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Furthermore, setting US immigration at 10 million per year would help repopulate and rejuvenate many declining and financially strapped cities, including Detroit, Newark or Stockton.&quot;

I wonder how you can write this sentence and both fail to notice and expect everyone reading it to fail to notice that Detroit, Newark and Stockton ended up &quot;declining and financially strapped&quot; precisely by internal migration of a different stock than that of the residents of those cities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Furthermore, setting US immigration at 10 million per year would help repopulate and rejuvenate many declining and financially strapped cities, including Detroit, Newark or Stockton.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder how you can write this sentence and both fail to notice and expect everyone reading it to fail to notice that Detroit, Newark and Stockton ended up &#8220;declining and financially strapped&#8221; precisely by internal migration of a different stock than that of the residents of those cities.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2371</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s safe to assume, on the basis of Anglosphere precedent, that the most dysfunctional, aggressive, parasitic, resentful, and ineradicably anti-capitalist populations will be herded to the front of the queue. It wouldn&#039;t feel good otherwise ...

Hanson&#039;s &#039;weird ethics argument&#039;, btw, is mainstream utilitarianism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s safe to assume, on the basis of Anglosphere precedent, that the most dysfunctional, aggressive, parasitic, resentful, and ineradicably anti-capitalist populations will be herded to the front of the queue. It wouldn&#8217;t feel good otherwise &#8230;</p>
<p>Hanson&#8217;s &#8216;weird ethics argument&#8217;, btw, is mainstream utilitarianism.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/a-modest-proposal/#comment-2370</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=336#comment-2370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The decent basis for (informal) anti-racism, is that people in cosmopolitan environments seek polite, open-minded interactions with strangers. This civilized bedrock is then cynically exploited by the zealots of the Cathedral to motivate a generalized system of thought-control, to dismantle the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and to install a set of grotesquely anti-scientific public superstitions. You&#039;re right to identify it as the core of the New Creed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decent basis for (informal) anti-racism, is that people in cosmopolitan environments seek polite, open-minded interactions with strangers. This civilized bedrock is then cynically exploited by the zealots of the Cathedral to motivate a generalized system of thought-control, to dismantle the ethno-historical basis of free societies, and to install a set of grotesquely anti-scientific public superstitions. You&#8217;re right to identify it as the core of the New Creed.</p>
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