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	<title>Comments on: Bitcoin vs Leviathan</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Nick B. Steves</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick B. Steves]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 21:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s always the mainstream take on bitcoin.  It can be used for money laundering! (Augmented 5th!!!)  What they don&#039;t tell you, what they forget to tell you, is that cash is used 1000 times more often for money laundering--real official, ya know, cash--which is even LESS traceable than BTC.  Ever spend cash, especially when you could&#039;ve used credit or debit or check (cheque)?  Are you sometimes forced (FORCED!) to use cash?  Well then you may have provided remote material cooperation with money launderers... with my delicate scrupulosity I lose sleep over this almost every night.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s always the mainstream take on bitcoin.  It can be used for money laundering! (Augmented 5th!!!)  What they don&#8217;t tell you, what they forget to tell you, is that cash is used 1000 times more often for money laundering&#8211;real official, ya know, cash&#8211;which is even LESS traceable than BTC.  Ever spend cash, especially when you could&#8217;ve used credit or debit or check (cheque)?  Are you sometimes forced (FORCED!) to use cash?  Well then you may have provided remote material cooperation with money launderers&#8230; with my delicate scrupulosity I lose sleep over this almost every night.</p>
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		<title>By: fotrkd</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fotrkd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks. Ever so slowly you&#039;re starting to make a bit more sense (no offence intended).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. Ever so slowly you&#8217;re starting to make a bit more sense (no offence intended).</p>
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		<title>By: Nick B. Steves</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-343</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick B. Steves]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 19:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would have replied over there, but it seems the discussion dried up over a month ago.  (Although it was quite informative to find MM&#039;s real name.) It is I think a serious mistake to conflate or contrast bitcoin and central banks:

1) Holding bitcoin is not like holding cash &lt;em&gt;in a bank&lt;/em&gt;.  It is like holding cash.  Measurements of BTC are BTC M0 and not at all reflective of M1 or higher.

2) BTC  trade 24 hours/day on several exchanges on at least 3 continents, so there is no &quot;night&quot; during which hypothetical speculators must come to market to buy to prop up the price.

3) BTC spenders, like cash dollar spenders, may or may not hold BTC for only the few seconds it takes to make payments.  This seems even less likely given its recent stratospheric rise (crossed $40 earlier today).  Even if BTC/USD starts to go down, then you&#039;ll have more spenders buying only what they need to get their pot, but that irreducible demand to hold BTC even if only for few minute intervals, makes a savage beatdown all the more difficult... and of course encourages long speculators.

So in the extant BTC market we find speculators not selling during the &quot;day&quot;, spenders holding over &quot;night&quot;, and few (if any) banks clearing accounts each &quot;day&quot;, which doesn&#039;t really exist anyway.  It seems as though the analysis almost doesn&#039;t apply at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have replied over there, but it seems the discussion dried up over a month ago.  (Although it was quite informative to find MM&#8217;s real name.) It is I think a serious mistake to conflate or contrast bitcoin and central banks:</p>
<p>1) Holding bitcoin is not like holding cash <em>in a bank</em>.  It is like holding cash.  Measurements of BTC are BTC M0 and not at all reflective of M1 or higher.</p>
<p>2) BTC  trade 24 hours/day on several exchanges on at least 3 continents, so there is no &#8220;night&#8221; during which hypothetical speculators must come to market to buy to prop up the price.</p>
<p>3) BTC spenders, like cash dollar spenders, may or may not hold BTC for only the few seconds it takes to make payments.  This seems even less likely given its recent stratospheric rise (crossed $40 earlier today).  Even if BTC/USD starts to go down, then you&#8217;ll have more spenders buying only what they need to get their pot, but that irreducible demand to hold BTC even if only for few minute intervals, makes a savage beatdown all the more difficult&#8230; and of course encourages long speculators.</p>
<p>So in the extant BTC market we find speculators not selling during the &#8220;day&#8221;, spenders holding over &#8220;night&#8221;, and few (if any) banks clearing accounts each &#8220;day&#8221;, which doesn&#8217;t really exist anyway.  It seems as though the analysis almost doesn&#8217;t apply at all.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s rather ominous that the money laundering function is presented as a principal feature. (The very notion of &lt;em&gt;un-laundered&lt;/em&gt; money is beginning to creep me out.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s rather ominous that the money laundering function is presented as a principal feature. (The very notion of <em>un-laundered</em> money is beginning to creep me out.)</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, that inspired the next installment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, that inspired the next installment.</p>
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		<title>By: northanger</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-318</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[northanger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Snowcrash - simultaneously drug, virus, and religion
http://www.xenosystems.net/the-royalist-imperative/#comment-115
- loops digital semiotics back into the cuneiform data bank of ancient sumeria, exploiting affinities between electronic culture and the Old Sumerian language, a lost agglutinative tongue without decendents, associated with glossolalia, xenoglossy, meme-plagues, and &#039;nam shubs&#039; or incantations]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snowcrash &#8211; simultaneously drug, virus, and religion<br />
<a href="http://www.xenosystems.net/the-royalist-imperative/#comment-115" rel="nofollow">http://www.xenosystems.net/the-royalist-imperative/#comment-115</a><br />
&#8211; loops digital semiotics back into the cuneiform data bank of ancient sumeria, exploiting affinities between electronic culture and the Old Sumerian language, a lost agglutinative tongue without decendents, associated with glossolalia, xenoglossy, meme-plagues, and &#8216;nam shubs&#8217; or incantations</p>
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		<title>By: northanger</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-317</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[northanger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[bow down &amp; worship bitcoin, &amp;c &amp;c...

Bitcoins at the British Museum
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122274.0

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=3451294&amp;partId=1&amp;searchText=g68%2f18&amp;orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&amp;numpages=10&amp;currentPage=1]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bow down &amp; worship bitcoin, &amp;c &amp;c&#8230;</p>
<p>Bitcoins at the British Museum<br />
<a href="https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122274.0" rel="nofollow">https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122274.0</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=3451294&#038;partId=1&#038;searchText=g68%2f18&#038;orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&#038;numpages=10&#038;currentPage=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=3451294&#038;partId=1&#038;searchText=g68%2f18&#038;orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&#038;numpages=10&#038;currentPage=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: vimothy</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vimothy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 03:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found a good article by JP Koning, which elaborates on Moldbug&#039;s Bitcoin prediction by making the functional differences between Bitcoin and central bank money explicit: http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/bitcoin-is-amoeba-central-banks-are.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found a good article by JP Koning, which elaborates on Moldbug&#8217;s Bitcoin prediction by making the functional differences between Bitcoin and central bank money explicit: <a href="http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/bitcoin-is-amoeba-central-banks-are.html" rel="nofollow">http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/bitcoin-is-amoeba-central-banks-are.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: northanger</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[northanger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Mar 2013 01:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Babylon doesn&#039;t want anything that doesn&#039;t serve their cup (btw, &quot;The Foundations of Newton&#039;s Alchemy&quot; notes the &quot;power of our chalybs which is found in the belly of Aries&quot; -- a conundrum the society for the proliferation of visceral realism might appreciate). Something about knowing fantasy and reality are much closer together. So looking at Azoth in Latin, Greek and Hebrew -- it takes a special kind of skycrane to get you to Mars. And Bitcoin&#039;s something like that, because M-C-M (which becomes for Marx the general formula for Capital) points (imho (at least all these numbers tell me)) to something that never fails to do what&#039;s right since 405 B.C.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Babylon doesn&#8217;t want anything that doesn&#8217;t serve their cup (btw, &#8220;The Foundations of Newton&#8217;s Alchemy&#8221; notes the &#8220;power of our chalybs which is found in the belly of Aries&#8221; &#8212; a conundrum the society for the proliferation of visceral realism might appreciate). Something about knowing fantasy and reality are much closer together. So looking at Azoth in Latin, Greek and Hebrew &#8212; it takes a special kind of skycrane to get you to Mars. And Bitcoin&#8217;s something like that, because M-C-M (which becomes for Marx the general formula for Capital) points (imho (at least all these numbers tell me)) to something that never fails to do what&#8217;s right since 405 B.C.</p>
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		<title>By: vimothy</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/bitcoin-vs-leviathan/#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vimothy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Mar 2013 23:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=112#comment-312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[fotrkd,

It seems that we&#039;ve exhausted our subject, our host and each other, so
I&#039;ll try to respond to your last post by summing up what I think I&#039;m
arguing about. I&#039;m no doubt missing some subtle point here, and the
appropriately labyrinthine--for a Nick Land blog--comment nesting
probably isn&#039;t helping either.

Let&#039;s say that we have a country which uses a particular currency, so
that most wealth held domestically is denominated in it. It could be
Bitcoin or dollars or marks or anything else. Say further that this
country experiences hyperinflation, or a crash in the value of its
currency. What happens--does everyone have the same amount of wealth
as before, relative to one another? No, definitely not. For one thing,
the magnitude of everyone&#039;s losses are different. If I have 100 units
of wealth, and this is reduced to 1 units of wealth, that&#039;s a much
bigger loss than someone who only has one unit of wealth being reduced
to one one hundredth. Why this changes relative wealth and not just
relative losses is that wealth is transferred from the holders of net
assets denominated in the crashing currency to holders of net
liabilities. The loss to the holder of the dollar or mark or euro
asset is equal to the gain to the holder of the liability. Only in the
case where there is no net position anywhere can there be no real
redistribution of wealth. But this is the case where there is no
financial wealth period, so hyperinflations would be impossible.

What I have tried to argue in the comments is that money has value for
two reasons: one, because it is &quot;easy to sell&quot;, i.e., it is the most
liquid asset available, which provides to the holder a non-pecuniary
yield or &quot;liquidity premium&quot;; and two, because money is a claim on the
assets of the issuing bank or fund, where those assets represent
future cash-flows (so that ultimately the bank liability is a
claim over future output).

Because Bitcoin is nobody&#039;s liability, it is a claim over no future
streams of revenue. It&#039;s not an asset at all, apart from in the
sense of its liquidity. Increases in the stock of Bitcoin
correspond to no investment in the capital stock of any
economy. Bitcoin do not represent real savings, from a macroeconomic
point of view. Just an abyssic black hole of capital. A chain of
financial intermediation that terminates, not with a borrower
financing the acquisition of some asset, but out in the void of
cyberspace somewhere--by design. And since the price of Bitcoin is
related to no underlying process that can be understood or predicted,
its price is indeterminate (although the money-supply growth rule
would prevent any attempt to stabilise the value of Bitcoin, even if
that were possible).

That is, Bitcoin might have the first property of money (to an
extent). But it doesn&#039;t have any of the second property. (Any asset
can have the first property.) Not having any of the second
property, the degree to which it can possess the first property is
impaired.

To the charge that it is conceivable that money is more like art and
so the second property does not matter, well maybe, but I say two
things. Firstly, that there are no banks who operate in such a way,
there are no central banks who operate in such a way, there are no
funds and no financial intermediaries who operate in such a way. Any
bank or non-bank intermediary operates in the following way: it has
liabilities and it has assets. So there is no other money that
resembles Bitcoin. Secondly, that when we look at historical examples
of hyperinflations, what we see is the monetazation of government
deficits. When the central bank monetizes deficits, it backs its
currency with worthless assets, which causes the holders of
liabilities denominated in that currency to dump them. This is largely
the story of the Weimar hyperinflation, for example.

From the point of view money as art, none of this makes any sense. I
don&#039;t think that&#039;s totally decisive--as I said, I think the
money as bubble that doesn&#039;t pop view is conceptually coherent--but it
does seem like strong evidence against it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fotrkd,</p>
<p>It seems that we&#8217;ve exhausted our subject, our host and each other, so<br />
I&#8217;ll try to respond to your last post by summing up what I think I&#8217;m<br />
arguing about. I&#8217;m no doubt missing some subtle point here, and the<br />
appropriately labyrinthine&#8211;for a Nick Land blog&#8211;comment nesting<br />
probably isn&#8217;t helping either.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say that we have a country which uses a particular currency, so<br />
that most wealth held domestically is denominated in it. It could be<br />
Bitcoin or dollars or marks or anything else. Say further that this<br />
country experiences hyperinflation, or a crash in the value of its<br />
currency. What happens&#8211;does everyone have the same amount of wealth<br />
as before, relative to one another? No, definitely not. For one thing,<br />
the magnitude of everyone&#8217;s losses are different. If I have 100 units<br />
of wealth, and this is reduced to 1 units of wealth, that&#8217;s a much<br />
bigger loss than someone who only has one unit of wealth being reduced<br />
to one one hundredth. Why this changes relative wealth and not just<br />
relative losses is that wealth is transferred from the holders of net<br />
assets denominated in the crashing currency to holders of net<br />
liabilities. The loss to the holder of the dollar or mark or euro<br />
asset is equal to the gain to the holder of the liability. Only in the<br />
case where there is no net position anywhere can there be no real<br />
redistribution of wealth. But this is the case where there is no<br />
financial wealth period, so hyperinflations would be impossible.</p>
<p>What I have tried to argue in the comments is that money has value for<br />
two reasons: one, because it is &#8220;easy to sell&#8221;, i.e., it is the most<br />
liquid asset available, which provides to the holder a non-pecuniary<br />
yield or &#8220;liquidity premium&#8221;; and two, because money is a claim on the<br />
assets of the issuing bank or fund, where those assets represent<br />
future cash-flows (so that ultimately the bank liability is a<br />
claim over future output).</p>
<p>Because Bitcoin is nobody&#8217;s liability, it is a claim over no future<br />
streams of revenue. It&#8217;s not an asset at all, apart from in the<br />
sense of its liquidity. Increases in the stock of Bitcoin<br />
correspond to no investment in the capital stock of any<br />
economy. Bitcoin do not represent real savings, from a macroeconomic<br />
point of view. Just an abyssic black hole of capital. A chain of<br />
financial intermediation that terminates, not with a borrower<br />
financing the acquisition of some asset, but out in the void of<br />
cyberspace somewhere&#8211;by design. And since the price of Bitcoin is<br />
related to no underlying process that can be understood or predicted,<br />
its price is indeterminate (although the money-supply growth rule<br />
would prevent any attempt to stabilise the value of Bitcoin, even if<br />
that were possible).</p>
<p>That is, Bitcoin might have the first property of money (to an<br />
extent). But it doesn&#8217;t have any of the second property. (Any asset<br />
can have the first property.) Not having any of the second<br />
property, the degree to which it can possess the first property is<br />
impaired.</p>
<p>To the charge that it is conceivable that money is more like art and<br />
so the second property does not matter, well maybe, but I say two<br />
things. Firstly, that there are no banks who operate in such a way,<br />
there are no central banks who operate in such a way, there are no<br />
funds and no financial intermediaries who operate in such a way. Any<br />
bank or non-bank intermediary operates in the following way: it has<br />
liabilities and it has assets. So there is no other money that<br />
resembles Bitcoin. Secondly, that when we look at historical examples<br />
of hyperinflations, what we see is the monetazation of government<br />
deficits. When the central bank monetizes deficits, it backs its<br />
currency with worthless assets, which causes the holders of<br />
liabilities denominated in that currency to dump them. This is largely<br />
the story of the Weimar hyperinflation, for example.</p>
<p>From the point of view money as art, none of this makes any sense. I<br />
don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s totally decisive&#8211;as I said, I think the<br />
money as bubble that doesn&#8217;t pop view is conceptually coherent&#8211;but it<br />
does seem like strong evidence against it.</p>
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