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	<title>Comments on: Chaos Patch (#24)</title>
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	<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/</link>
	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-100355</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 06:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-100355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I assumed he was making a mathematician&#039;s joke.

The constitution grants congress the power to set weights and measures. It also defines terms of office in years.

Easy solution to permanent power - set the value of a year to 5,000 days or 50,000 days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assumed he was making a mathematician&#8217;s joke.</p>
<p>The constitution grants congress the power to set weights and measures. It also defines terms of office in years.</p>
<p>Easy solution to permanent power &#8211; set the value of a year to 5,000 days or 50,000 days.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-100156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Erik, Ok, I get where you&#039;re coming from.  Thanks for clarifying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik, Ok, I get where you&#8217;re coming from.  Thanks for clarifying.</p>
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		<title>By: SanguineEmpiricist</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SanguineEmpiricist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 07:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Land if I ever manage to buy you a second/NRx home in Monte Carlo, will you do exctasy with me?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Land if I ever manage to buy you a second/NRx home in Monte Carlo, will you do exctasy with me?</p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 05:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill, I didn&#039;t say Godel&#039;s proof is a paradox, and I don&#039;t resent knowing that there is a hole in the system.

I resent people treating the hole as a big deal which can be used to prove their pet idea, and I&#039;ve seen quite a variety of pet ideas.

To perhaps make the comparison to quantum mechanics clearer, there are people who think that quantum tunneling means it&#039;s possible for them to drive their car into a wall and come out unharmed on the other side. I could defend the &quot;possibility&quot; of this at the level of a chance less than 1 out of the number of particles in the universe, or I could say &quot;no&quot;, and I think it&#039;s the better choice to say &quot;no&quot;.

Godel&#039;s incompleteness can be pushed arbitrarily far down, as it relies on a diagonalization argument, meaning there are systems of axioms and language where the proposition P takes years to write out. The limits to reason then start to sound like a complaint about the permeability of neutronium to me.

Furthermore, a complete mathematical system is possible. Godel&#039;s incompleteness theorem applies to a) sufficiently expressive systems that are b) reasoning about themselves. An inexpressive system can be complete because it can&#039;t express a proposition like P. An expressive system can have P proven from another system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, I didn&#8217;t say Godel&#8217;s proof is a paradox, and I don&#8217;t resent knowing that there is a hole in the system.</p>
<p>I resent people treating the hole as a big deal which can be used to prove their pet idea, and I&#8217;ve seen quite a variety of pet ideas.</p>
<p>To perhaps make the comparison to quantum mechanics clearer, there are people who think that quantum tunneling means it&#8217;s possible for them to drive their car into a wall and come out unharmed on the other side. I could defend the &#8220;possibility&#8221; of this at the level of a chance less than 1 out of the number of particles in the universe, or I could say &#8220;no&#8221;, and I think it&#8217;s the better choice to say &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
<p>Godel&#8217;s incompleteness can be pushed arbitrarily far down, as it relies on a diagonalization argument, meaning there are systems of axioms and language where the proposition P takes years to write out. The limits to reason then start to sound like a complaint about the permeability of neutronium to me.</p>
<p>Furthermore, a complete mathematical system is possible. Godel&#8217;s incompleteness theorem applies to a) sufficiently expressive systems that are b) reasoning about themselves. An inexpressive system can be complete because it can&#8217;t express a proposition like P. An expressive system can have P proven from another system.</p>
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		<title>By: nydwracu</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nydwracu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 02:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Precision of language? Rectification of names.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Precision of language? Rectification of names.</p>
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		<title>By: nydwracu</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nydwracu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 02:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve always suspected that the flaw Gödel saw is the fact that the Constitution can be arbitrarily amended.

But maybe I overestimate his sense of humor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always suspected that the flaw Gödel saw is the fact that the Constitution can be arbitrarily amended.</p>
<p>But maybe I overestimate his sense of humor.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter A. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99837</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter A. Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 01:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Friedman says in _The Machinery of Freedom_ that he&#039;s not a utilitarian.  What do you call the approach he takes in &quot;What Does Optimal Population Mean?&quot;  It looks to me like utilitarianism, except that it&#039;s defined over a specific, limited set of people, and he&#039;s using a lottery (with a Rawlsian &quot;veil of ignorance&quot;) in order to justify comparisons across different hypothetical futures.  I think this approach is defensible for what he&#039;s using it for, but if it isn&#039;t &quot;utilitarianism&quot;, then what do you call it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Friedman says in _The Machinery of Freedom_ that he&#8217;s not a utilitarian.  What do you call the approach he takes in &#8220;What Does Optimal Population Mean?&#8221;  It looks to me like utilitarianism, except that it&#8217;s defined over a specific, limited set of people, and he&#8217;s using a lottery (with a Rawlsian &#8220;veil of ignorance&#8221;) in order to justify comparisons across different hypothetical futures.  I think this approach is defensible for what he&#8217;s using it for, but if it isn&#8217;t &#8220;utilitarianism&#8221;, then what do you call it?</p>
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		<title>By: Prog-Trad</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99771</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Prog-Trad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 22:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Took me a couple of days to get round to it, but Jesus Camp was rather terrifying. Made an interesting contrast to the Anglo-Catholic Solemn High Mass I attended Sunday morning...

It wouldn&#039;t be an exaggeration to say that one of my principle beefs with the fundies is aesthetic, as well as theological/historical/scientific etc... They don&#039;t even have any incense or Latin, damn it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Took me a couple of days to get round to it, but Jesus Camp was rather terrifying. Made an interesting contrast to the Anglo-Catholic Solemn High Mass I attended Sunday morning&#8230;</p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be an exaggeration to say that one of my principle beefs with the fundies is aesthetic, as well as theological/historical/scientific etc&#8230; They don&#8217;t even have any incense or Latin, damn it!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: zdyuv</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zdyuv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;self-referential smartasses demanding you jump through their hoops”

Isn&#039;t that what reason is in the first place? A subset of nature using a bunch of funny little stupid rules?

As for practical impacts, there&#039;s 

http://math.andrej.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/real-world-realizability.pdf

and

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta.pdf

for starters. I mean, would you have predicted the impact of Babbage&#039;s ideas back in the 19th century? And then there&#039;s computational complexity. Knowing what can&#039;t be done can end up saving a hell of a lot of time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;self-referential smartasses demanding you jump through their hoops”</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that what reason is in the first place? A subset of nature using a bunch of funny little stupid rules?</p>
<p>As for practical impacts, there&#8217;s </p>
<p><a href="http://math.andrej.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/real-world-realizability.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://math.andrej.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/real-world-realizability.pdf</a></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta.pdf</a></p>
<p>for starters. I mean, would you have predicted the impact of Babbage&#8217;s ideas back in the 19th century? And then there&#8217;s computational complexity. Knowing what can&#8217;t be done can end up saving a hell of a lot of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-24/#comment-99157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alrenous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3381#comment-99157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Trying to fight them with better, more pure, more perfect, more lifeless algorithms will never, ever work.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If purifying your algorithms makes them more lifeless, you&#039;re &lt;a href=&quot;alrenous.blogspot.com/2011/10/secular-as-anti-consciousness.html &quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doing it wrong&lt;/a&gt;. Addendum: that all religions are wrong doesn&#039;t mean religion per se is wrong. Most atheism is founded on an argument from ignorance - I can&#039;t imagine how spirituality could work, therefore it doesn&#039;t work. Pure hubris.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Trying to fight them with better, more pure, more perfect, more lifeless algorithms will never, ever work.</p></blockquote>
<p>If purifying your algorithms makes them more lifeless, you&#8217;re <a href="alrenous.blogspot.com/2011/10/secular-as-anti-consciousness.html " rel="nofollow">doing it wrong</a>. Addendum: that all religions are wrong doesn&#8217;t mean religion per se is wrong. Most atheism is founded on an argument from ignorance &#8211; I can&#8217;t imagine how spirituality could work, therefore it doesn&#8217;t work. Pure hubris.</p>
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