Chaos Patch (#25)

(Open thread + free random prodding.)

I’m Rotheramed out, but anybody looking for substantial relevant reading material would probably be interested in this. Some of the ethnic-insider commentary is interesting too. (Plus, an Aljazeera perspective.)
+ Scruton on Rotherham, concluding with this instant classic: “After a few weeks all will have been swept under the carpet, and the work of destruction can resume”.
+ Dampier (whose conclusion is pure gold).

The torrential Dugin current continues. Alt-Righters should sympathize, suggests Radix. That’s probably true, and more evidence of the fundamental divergence between the ENR and NRx. There’s a substantial article at The Fourth Political Theory blog. Two older pieces (both fascinating, NIO suggestions). And also this. Related: Scary Strelkov, and (for comedy time) blame the MRAs for Putin.

A model of patient hereditarian argument.

Nicholas Wade responds (briefly and cogently) to his ‘critics’.

A darker shade of Dawkins.

An old lesson from Venezuela: “… you can’t suspend the laws of economics. You can’t print money to pay for things without creating inflation. And you can’t stop that inflation just by saying you want it to. But not only will this magical thinking fail, it will also create new and even worse problems like shortages. […] Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others.”

… not everyone wants to be us. (Far nicer than I’d be on the topic, but remarkably well done.) A few more ISIS-related links (1, 2, 3).

If this article is to be believed, Steampunk is basically Cathedral-format retro-futurism.

The economic establishment is sounding sad.

Harsh holiness.

Amerika makes an anti-formalist challenge (response owed).

We still need to split.

Sanctity and Cyberspace.

Some bonus insane leftism.

ADDED: Hong Kong is apparently badly in need of some democratic affliction.

August 31, 2014admin 41 Comments »

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41 Responses to this entry

  • MLR Says:

    I hope my recent comments have not been misunderstood, but if I may be allowed to point out here that they were made in anticipation of the kind of comments I saw in the Rotherham thread encapsulated best by Bryce’s comment @ 1:04 and the followups from Mark Warburton, scientism, ChrisB and Kgaard. I noticed phrases there like “hopeless” “escape” “impossible” “absurd” culminating in “I’ll never bring up children in this country.”

    If NRx really becomes that, I think it’s peeing in the sink instead of making the little bit of extra effort to take to more steps and get to the toilet, if I may borrow a TLPism.

    The fact is, seeing the Cathedral is absolutely liberating for young people, but to do it, you have to look them in the eye and talk to THEM. I show them my bald head, tell I shave and won’t do the combover, but the hair transplant ads still get me, just a little bit, where it counts. And they are. All. Ears. Women no less – they make the connection to makeup instantly.

    Can’t we in the NRx get better at actually talking to the people – especially the young people – in our lives, and giving them a chance to make those same connections?

    Perhaps one day we can actually see a few bureaucrats swinging from their well-earned lamp posts.


    Nick B. Steves Reply:

    Entropy goes up. Inexorably. Making it go down locally is hard work. Making it go down in “England” or the “USA” or “The West” is an impossibly large, multi-generational task. Making it go down in a pocket or two remains achievable. I agree with your caution against despair.

    What Henry said here ought be front and center to Neoreactionary thought:

    Part of the reason as to why we have all these mobs roiling the public is because of the conscious breakdown of our culture, pursued over hundreds of years by our intellectuals.

    The West, like many of the other world cultures, has a disaffected young man problem. Disaffected young men usually take to destruction out of a lack of productive alternatives. The left manufactures disaffected young men and takes great efforts to increase their disaffection and alienation from a positive Western identity.

    The correct response is not to fan those flames, but to help guide our young men towards a more positive identity.

    Success for a rightist does not look like a mob that agrees with you tearing your opponents limb from limb. The opposing mob loves it when this happens, because it’s occasion for more destruction. The proper goal isn’t more destruction, but to establish and maintain order.

    We’re not going to solve this problem by fixating on criticizing a few marginal feminists. Neither will it work to make shallow and misguided calls for equality. A positive program is needed, and that program must have a cultural component.

    The failures of Rotherham were I think the failures of men at being men. We may not be able to fix 3.5 billion men; but we can, and we must, fix a few. While we can, there is hope. At least locally.


    MLR Reply:

    Nick, I’m so appreciative of you posting this: as widely as I try to read around the NRx’sphere, things slip through the cracks (I chuckle every time Chrome asks if I really, REALLY want to open ALL 43 tabs … it’s always a resounding “Yes!”) Henry says this so well, and I’d follow up with the remark that what NRx has to get good at NEXT is being a source of cultural strength for those in our care.

    My parents get so much credit, here. I was such a lost young man (ha! I still am …). After being homeschooled, and even spending time in the military, I left with no sense of what I could do, or how to navigate the world. My pride prevented me from asking for help, and the message of atomizing individualism that I accepted made it harder to ask for help. But even as I wondered as far as China (where, incidentally, on holiday while the university was closed, I found and read the then 1-year+ archives of a certain prolific blogger whose name starts with M), the culture they imparted to me kept me strong. Every day I’m reminded I’m a very small nobody – I’m an ESL teacher, for crying out loud (aka “not a real teacher”) – but I’ve seen things that can help others. The perspective my parents gave me changed MY whole world: each student who passes through my little class I pray gets just a little source of peace and perspective. Each of you have that, too, and being cleverer by far, you have SO much more!

    I agree that fixing it ALL is not reasonable or wise as a target, but my Faith informs me that understanding (in a broader, society-encompassing sense) is in the hands of the Author and Finisher of our Faith, and He would only ask that we do right with what He sets in front of us.

    If that task is ONE young person, then gosh darnit, look them in the EYE and tell them how modernity pulls at you, how you struggle, and how you want them to have some peace in this world. They will listen. Talk to them.

    If we (NRx) get good at that, we can at least rest easier knowing Nemesis won’t have it in for us… and at best, that she may even help.


    Kgaard Reply:

    MLR … I would be happy to help the young people in my life. But there are no young people in my life. The cathedral has been at work a loooong time. My brother has no kids. I have no kids. My two step brothers have one kid between them. So that’s a fertility ratio of 0.25x — roughly 12.5% of replacement rate. My extended family out to second cousins reads like a laundry list of family breakdown — and these are not poor people (middle class and up). So every time I look dispassionately at the data and the realities … I come away pessimistic. As such, I continue to ponder a move to central Europe. Being self-employed, there is nothing stopping me beyond inertia (and the lousy winter weather over there).

    I am in sync with Anonymous Conservative’s view that as a society gets wealthier r selection is favored over K. So if you are a K-selected dude logic suggests moving to a poor country if you want to spawn and not lose your dignity as you raise your kids.

    MLR Reply:

    *Ahem* I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I had to look up the K-selection business (I wasn’t at all kidding when I said you lot are cleverer than I).

    I can happily report that this is well and truly irrelevant.

    The REASON those young girls were victimized is because … hold your breath … no one wanted them. That’s right, you’ve seen the “I need feminism because nobody needs me” parody-meme. It’s true. And sad.

    If you can find a caring bone in your body, then do your namesake right and take the leap of faith: reach out. Join a church, and look, and listen, and find a genuine need, and offer to teach. Or coach. Our world is full of parents who will let their children form “relationships” with immigrant cab drivers, what’s stopping YOU? And with your insight and formidable mental strength, you’ll be trusted to do right, and rightly so. Do you think my boss at the ESL school ASKS me to Red Pill my students!? Oh ho ho ho ho!! They trust me, and I do right. You can, too.

    And it’s not ME asking, dear: Nemesis is. And she has a sword. It’s sharp. And she ain’t afraid to wield it. And she is WATCHING you and your inertia stare into that damnable pool as you daydream, just like she watched Narcissus. THAT is your punishment. That IS your punishment. You can have a long life, dreaming away of all the possibilities, and wither away to nothing but your … your ennui.


    Listen to how the interviewed girls from Rotherham themselves describe the events. One spoke of how a man brought her to his house, and plied her with cigs and alcohol. How is that even POSSIBLE!?

    It’s because better men sat by in self imposed exile calculating the fertility rate of their extended family. That’s great: I was never good at math, colour me impressed.

    Now go DO the right thing. Nemesis isn’t asking you to save the world, she asking you to NOT stare into the pool for forever.

    Alrenous Reply:

    Tags for individual comment links can be extracted with ‘view selection source.’ I try to highlight the area between ‘X says’ or ‘replies’ and the portrait. Just the portrait works too.


    admin Reply:

    That sounds incredibly helpful — but I’m not getting the exact procedure from your description.


    Alrenous Reply:

    I shall go from one extreme to another.

    For an exact science, highlight the portrait, right click and ‘view selection source.’ Hopefully there isn’t browser-dependent syntax. (I highlight the name going backwards and swoop upward to an area next to the portrait. This is less exact.) Sadly, there is browser-dependent syntax; on Opera it’s ‘inspect element.’ For Chrome…well, stop using Chrome. It’s spyware.

    The source will be headed with a div tag. ({div?}) It will include id=”comment-102476″. Slap a # on the end of the post link, followed by that id,

    Nick B. Steves Reply:

    I usually just view the source of the page and ctrl+f for the comment. The hashtag is usually near the top. You can add the hashtag to the browser address bar just to be sure. Never tried viewing source OF SELECTION. that’d be quicker/easier if it works. Could be browser dependent.

    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 2:43 pm Reply | Quote
  • Hanfeizi Says:

    Not a word about the upset in Hong Kong?

    Neoreaction seems to be a tough sell to Kongers these days.


    admin Reply:

    I’ve been collecting some links on that — haven’t collected my thoughts. I’ll throw a couple in, to encourage comment here.


    scientism Reply:

    Nevertheless, for large swaths of Hong Kong society, economic concerns trump political considerations and Hong Kong residents are divided on the issue of street protests. According to a May survey by the University of Hong Kong, 56% of respondents said they were opposed to the Occupy Central movement, with 24% of respondents saying they approved of it.

    Wong Shun-kwong, a 50 year-old chef, said he is more concerned about property prices, his job and retirement fund than about political freedom.

    “With or without Occupy Central, my life is still the same, and the same goes for many people in Hong Kong,” he said. “I think Beijing has already been very tolerant to people in Hong Kong, in a way that you can’t find elsewhere in China.”

    Interesting that the WSJ saw fit to include dissenting opinion on this issue. When was the last time you saw an article on “democracy protests” (which in many cases aren’t even really democracy protests) that included the fact that most people don’t care? Sounds like they’re lowering expectations.


    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 4:03 pm Reply | Quote
  • Antisthenes Says:

    I love the fact that one of the immediate reactions to Dawkins on the Guardian is “ban him from Twitter! Somebody shut that man up!”


    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 4:58 pm Reply | Quote
  • scientism Says:

    Re: the Guardian piece on Dawkins, “nobody is better at being human” is a perfect summation of everything wrong with liberal individualism. Value terms are purpose-relative. Something can only be good or bad for some purpose (function). So the headline is perfectly correct: from a liberal individualist perspective, a whole human being cannot be valued (defects in the human being might be deemed good or bad relative to his or her goals, but as a whole there’s nothing the human being, including his goals, can be measured against).

    This is why liberal individualism has never been able to account for morality, having to invent deductivist schemes like utilitarianism and Kantian deontology to try to make some sense of right and wrong. Social realism solves the problem outright: calling a human being good or bad is no more problematic than calling organs, tools, food, etc, good or bad, since individual human beings have a functional role in society. That is, individuals belong in part-whole relationships to society. This is just “traditional” virtue-based morality.

    From this one mistake (taking society to be the mere sum of individuals), you get the whole misbegotten history of progressivism. The inability to account for morality, the inability to judge terminal values, the equality of wants and desires (sexual, narcissistic, etc), the inability to order people by roles (gender roles, class roles, social hierarchy, etc). All of these things rely on a social realist ontology and cannot be accounted for form a purely individualistic perspective. For example, only under a part-whole relationship can you make sense of the value of differential gender roles; without it you’re consigned to merely noting the fact of gender differences.

    “Nobody Is Better At Being Human” needs to be a t-shirt slogan, written underneath a picture of some sort of gay transsexual disabled Quasimodo-like character.


    ultraZEN Reply:

    and yet it moves, as the heretic said. Because although no one is better, the progs are better at not being better.


    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 5:39 pm Reply | Quote
  • spandrell Says:

    No universal suffrage in Hong Kong. China has told Hong Kong its next leader will be selected via an election committee in 2017—dashing the aspirations of pro-democracy activists. On Sunday, Macau re-elected its chief executive similarly, in a vote where Fernando Chui was the only candidate. The process took 25 minutes.

    Seems efficiency is not appreciated these days. Hong Kong will fall to the demotist mobs, and there’s nothing we can do about it.


    Hurlock Reply:

    Maybe you are underestimating the Chinese government?
    I doubt they will just let one of their best cities to slowly die to democracy.
    Although it depends, I guess.


    admin Reply:

    Have to agree with Hurlock. How could HK fall to the demotist mobs without a collapse of the PRC Dynasty?


    spandrell Reply:

    The new law allows universal suffrage on candidates nominated by a closed group.

    In due time, the closed group nomination system will be dismantled, and universal suffrage to long-haired demagogues allowed.

    Hong Kong is now only one small step from full-blown democracy, and Beijing has allowed it. The momentum is in the demotists’ hand. Stopping them would require massive intervention in the media, and exile for thousands of people. Beijing doesn’t have the balls for that anymore.

    In 2017 every single Hong Kong citizen will have a vote. Once they get used to that the agitation will only grow worse.


    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 7:01 pm Reply | Quote
  • SanguineEmpiricist Says:

    I would like to make it clear to any neoreactionaries that the action arm for this movement while having to write every now and then will not dedicate themselves to this. The point of NRx is not to destroy our chances of success by attentional poverty. We have enough writers it seems.

    You see, if you now have a better grip of reality with all the new intellectual tools you are given, your maneuverability should be very high. Since we know from Graham that highly skilled people with leverage can navigate the world very swifty, you must use this to your advantage.

    I do not want to give my secrets(in the sense of Thiel) away as I fear it takes from my edge, and if I ever manage to put even some of the things I am trying to get in the works together I can assure any one here who is a part of this cause, that they will be recieving emails and the money will be handed over easily if you are competent and we will discuss how to increase our chances exponentially.

    I’m just young enough to endure a few more losses, but the fact that this seems to be picking up steam is worying. I’ve almost been to prison a few times and I thought I’d have some time to myself but it seems duty calls. I often wonder how can I give Cochran/Harpending the society that makes them safe, if I cannot even endure some pain?

    Nevertheless, you will not have any maneuverability if you cannot do the basic grunt work that comes with say…. Math, or your field of specialization. If you want the new future, we’re gonna have to go ‘in’ eventually.

    There are enough places in the world here you can “Cut in line, to the front” if you just think about it a bit and execute on what seems right even if you don’t have a lot of people to confirm. There are good deals and moments, but you have to not fuck it up. Believe in the ‘tails’.


    Posted on August 31st, 2014 at 7:37 pm Reply | Quote
  • Blogospheroid Says:

    The Hong Kong links are interesting. I wonder if in this context, is it cis-democracy or trans-democracy, to use the moldbuggian terms that is raising its head over there? Is it an uprising of the middle class or the never-do-wells? (can’t imagine hong kong has too many of the latter) Or both?

    The reason videos on ZEDE’s in Honduras are very good. I didn’t know that they already had similar arrangements in the business parks. Very interesting things could happen there, if allowed by the laws. If they can import workers, then it would be easy to create an entire district of call centres that share the american timezones. The lower skilled locals could setup the shops and service businesses. If not, then it might take longer, but the business would move there. India better watch out!

    I also had an unreasonably good time looking at union jack visualisations without the Scottish blue. Sep 18 could end up being the next big day for secession.


    Kgaard Reply:

    Watching those ZEDE videos now. Thanks for the tip. They are awesome. This is about the most exciting thing I can think of happening in the world today.


    Posted on September 1st, 2014 at 8:09 am Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    O.O this should be intristing

    This is in the tradition (heh) of Evola who wrote books viewing Fascism and Nazism from the Right. This is what I’ve always been doing too, except viewing the GOP and alt-right from the right, or more precisely from the viewpoints of Plato and neech for the most part.

    Russia is to me a fascinating specimen in current year america because the establishment has managed to sublimate existing crypto-nationalist energies into scapegoating it as the Evil Other. A brilliant maneuver on their part if you ask me. Russians are similar to Italians in that they exist as “quasi-whites” and that puts them in a place that allows for a certain ridicule that you won’t find leveled at any of the other planet’s subspecies. Jews too are in this category tho we know they’re beyond reproach.

    Anyway, might share some musings on this book later if anything stands out as alien to our ordinary way of looking at things.


    Wagner Reply:


    The US and EU want to control Everything In The World!

    ISIS appears nobler and nobler everyday.

    I’ve been to China, they’re Westernizing too.

    Please, trust the NRx spergs when we tell you that you do not want to take that road, you do not.

    They’re like, Listen kid, once everyone is stirred into the melting pot, THEN, then you can have your smile-program, only then. So might as well help us carry out our business, it’s the only way you’re going to get what you want.

    Melting-pot citizens won’t care about the smile-program though, you’re not foolin me.


    Wagner Reply:

    If Trump isn’t able to do this I don’t see how the word “president” is anything other than an empty label.

    Putin laughs at you!


    Wagner Reply:

    This book is close to hagiographic, and disappointing for that reason.

    While reading it there’s always the ominous thought on the periphery… “What happens to Dugin if it isn’t close to hagiographic?”

    So we obviously don’t want to live in a country like that. Both could learn from the other.

    Wagner Reply:

    See, this is who I want to know about. *Their* thoughts. This book seems like an exercise in exotericism so far. These new men he speaks of could look at Dugin as “Putin’s propaganda boy” for all we know, rather than as his brain, as is speculated in the US.

    And the Chinese must have a secret elite like this too, whose text messages e.g. I want access to.

    Not for any “slimeball” reason, or for US interests, I simply want to know what they think, how they think. Aren’t most of us cosmopolitans at this point? It’s the telos of our patriotism.

    Wagner Reply:

    Detecting any parallels?

    Why oh why would our MSM despise Russia hmmmmm 🤔

    I wonder what “put an end to anti-state broadcasting” looked like concretely. Probably gunpoint was involved. Putin looks like a cold person, like he’s murdered people before. Trump is way too warm.

    Wagner Reply:

    This is why Russia fascinates me, because they’re white yet not white, and this psychologically impacts us. An American of Russian descent without an accent would be impossible for most to distinguish from an American of English descent without an accent, yet there’s something strange about “the Russians living over there”.

    They’re fellow whites who have taken authoritarian actions against a past regime, in a manner most in the US would deem brutal or barbaric. The fact that they’re, again, fellow whites, is why there is this constant propaganda mission against them by the MSM. Notice there are plenty of brown and black colored countries that act brutally and barbarically. That doesn’t matter, because to progs that’s expected. When fellow whites do something like that, all of a sudden it’s a threat because it gives us ideas, it gives us the impression we could do something similar, if we so chose.

    The fact that it happened so recently in history, and continues to happen in the present, is the most significant factor. The Nazis exist in dead B&W photos and film, the Russians are alive and well.

    Wagner Reply:

    Notice that this Chaos Patch begins linking to Rotherham related material and then segues into linking to Dugin related material. If you don’t know much about Rotherham go ahead look it up, you will start to see the cohesion.

    Wagner Reply:

    P R I M O R D I A L

    The only question is when. And the sooner the better.

    The Epstein fiasco is definitive proof this is the only option ☠️


    Wagner Reply:

    Heh oh how I’d like to hear a “sufficient response” to all this for once. Truth is they don’t have a sufficient response, otherwise why would they have to resign themselves to speaking about it in Navajo code-talk.


    Posted on September 14th, 2019 at 1:44 pm Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    I get the sense from Dugin that he wants to *be* Putin, he wants to take Putin’s place. And that putting the schmoozes to him is the closest he’s going to get to achieving that goal.

    My question is, why *shouldn’t* Dugin be Putin?

    The logic seems to check out. Look:

    Governance is not the domain of oligarchs. Why should merchants be the ones in charge of controlling people’s lives?

    Likewise, why should a former KGB agent be, rather than a political scientist?

    When you start knocking out the types who shouldn’t be in power (pundits who are educated in nothing besides rhetoric e.g.) you eventually reach the conclusion that everyone in the government should be replaced by political scientists and political philosophers.


    Wagner Reply:

    Or is he already Putin?


    Posted on September 15th, 2019 at 3:30 pm Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    This makes the smug look Putin has about him suspect:

    *flips into US-supremacism mindset*

    There’s a symptomatic silence throughout Dugin so far. He never mentions all the deaths under the previous regime. He talks a lot about the continuity of Russian history too so it makes it all the more glaring. He obviously feels ashamed for his people. And this silence makes me feel pity for him.

    From a US-supremacist standpoint I would ask, After such a catastrophe (to put it extremely mildly) does Russia… – eh, is “deserve” the right word? – does Russia deserve to return to the historical arena of civilization? There’s no word more precise than “deserve”, it doesn’t quite express the mood.

    Sure, the US has had its blunders. Not on that scale…

    You have to realize that we don’t judge them (or the even more blunderous Chinese) by the same standard as we do euro-peoples, hence Hitler is front and center as Devil Man. Ironically it’s racist to think of Hitler as the supreme baddy- do you see how that works?


    Wagner Reply:

    *a Russian spy stomping on my face and ribcage in a back alley*

    “Do you feel ashamed, huh? Do you feel ashamed?”

    Such crypto-currents between their country and ours, and everyone remains on the surface.

    The MSM really does not want Americans thinking clearly about international relations between us and them in particular. I’m sure I’ve lost quite a few readers because of my recent Russia kick, the MSM hypnotism is powerful. The Berlin wall fell a couple months after I was born so people who were adults back then likely have a both more objective and less objective view of US/Russia relations. For instance I just look at them as another country among others.

    Reading Dugin I’m realizing now that when Trump talked about “draining the swamp” the establishment might have interpreted that as “do what Putin did” lol, i.e. fix commie errors. Their entire propaganda campaign the last few years basically translates to “Remember, those ‘whites over there’ are evillll, evilllll I tell you!”


    Posted on September 16th, 2019 at 4:07 pm Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    A relief, he’s finally getting critical of Putin in the last third of the book:

    What’s worse, “delegating the management of science and education to highly incompetent figures” or not switching out elites at all and instead almost exclusively only ever talking about building a “wall”? The priorities in this country ffs. With the same pseudo-elites in place a wall is close to meaningless.


    Posted on September 21st, 2019 at 5:55 pm Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    Mind-warping way to frame it. This is why we’re cousins. I hope he’s taken a trip to Mold Land since writing this book because he has some detectable pre-reflective liberal qualities that they revaluate from the inside of the hive as it were. It always seems like he’s only gesturing at a fourth political theory whereas NRx provides more details of what one would look like. I wish academics would start to be daring enough to theorize about these two schools of thought. So far I’ve seen dishonest hitpieces on both of them and not much else. They shouldn’t leave 20-something shitposters to be the only ones grappling with topics of such gravity- “What’s next after liberalism? What is to be put into place if the EU is disbanded?” Dugin is right too, they interpret all their enemies as pre-liberal, i.e. people who need to conform to their values. Nope, some of us are past that, we’re post-liberals, and they’re the ones who need to “catch up” with us.


    Posted on September 22nd, 2019 at 8:42 pm Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    Где бы вы предпочли жить, где-то, что неуклонно приближается к излишкам коммунизма, или где-то, что уже научилось избегать излишеств коммунизма?


    Wagner Reply:

    روسيا ، أمريكا ، وجهان لعملة واحدة


    Posted on September 26th, 2019 at 10:39 am Reply | Quote
  • Wagner Says:

    Not like pointing out logical inconsistencies to these retards ever changes their minds, might as well though.

    npcface Russia bad they control us

    Unless we do something as ruthless as Putin, Russia really will control us someday.

    “It’ll all be fine, relax.” No, it won’t be. If you continue to contribute to the triumph of trash-culture we will eventually be vulnerable enough as a country to be at the whims of Russia and China.

    Y’know how I showed that we’re the #1 Reich in the world and that the left doesn’t like that? How do you think life will be for us when we’re in a spot like Dugin, writing books about how we need to resist the hegemony of Russia and China, when America is now #3 in the world? Would you like that at all? No. This is why I continuously say that leftists have no sense of the future.


    Posted on October 13th, 2019 at 9:36 pm Reply | Quote

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