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	<title>Comments on: Cloven</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, a lot of landmark decisions were in fact nothing more than &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_case_%28law%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;orchestrated test cases&lt;/a&gt;; including critical ones like &lt;i&gt;Plessy&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;/i&gt;Griswold&lt;/i&gt;.  For properJusticiability, a case is supposed to arise from a genuine dispute, a recognized cause of action, be ripe for resolution, with the participants having standing, and the court having jurisdiction.  

There is a general rule against advisory opinions and pretext cases designed strategically to force the court to rule on much broader constitutional principles.

Nevertheless, when it&#039;s &#039;compelling&#039; (and the technical procedures of the law have been followed to the letter), a court will overlook evidence that the case is fabricated (or originating in negative antagonisms and not deriving from sincere positive motives, as with this case) sand grant the parties special solicitude.

So you occasionally see laws that are on the books that haven&#039;t been enforced in generations because of a change in social norms that have nearly fallen into a state of desuetude.  But precisely &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; their enforcement would offend new social norms, they make perfect cases to illustrate the fact that jurisprudence has been moving in the direction of a principle incompatible with the tolerance of that old restriction (or, vice versa, newly comfortable with a restriction that would have been seen as onerous in the past).

So sometimes somebody tries to get themselves arrested by conspicuously and confessedly in an ostentatiously public manner (i.e. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/12/i-got-myself-arrested-so-i-could-look-inside-the-justice-system/282360/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this guy&lt;/a&gt;, though for different reasons).  At other times, it really is a conspiracy between the prosecutor and defendant and judge.  

And sometimes someone who doesn&#039;t want 10 commandments monuments on public ground or crosses at government cemeteries for &#039;get religion out of the public square&#039; / &#039;separation of church and state&#039; reasons, if they can&#039;t get rid of them directly, they can try to suggest broadly-offensive statues of Satan and force the issue.

The problem is that once the new principle gets announced, it’s like an invasive species and runs amok unpredictably, eventually tearing up existing laws and norms left and right.  There is no &#039;limiting principle&#039;, to use the jargon.  There is no existing jurisprudential structure of competing values that form a framework of reasonable balancing, and so only the present degree of social outrage prevents the most radical implications from being implemented right away.  But as one slides down the slippery slope, the ‘outrageousness’ of something that is now closer to long-standing law declines and the once ‘radical’ position is likely to be ordered by a court in time.

When people argue about these radical consequences that are the logical end-game of the newly enunciated principle – as Scalia often does – they are branded as cooks.  “If you permit gay marriage, then what you are really saying is that there is no constitutional ability for the state to have a moral basis for its marriage policies, and soon enough you’ll have polygamy and …”  - “Oh, you’re being ridiculous and extreme and making a mockery of yourself!  This case is only about …”

And now, come to think about it, this is a leftward ratchet mechanism that Jim missed.  Time to write another blog post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, a lot of landmark decisions were in fact nothing more than <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_case_%28law%29" rel="nofollow">orchestrated test cases</a>; including critical ones like <i>Plessy</i> and Griswold.  For properJusticiability, a case is supposed to arise from a genuine dispute, a recognized cause of action, be ripe for resolution, with the participants having standing, and the court having jurisdiction.  </p>
<p>There is a general rule against advisory opinions and pretext cases designed strategically to force the court to rule on much broader constitutional principles.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, when it&#8217;s &#8216;compelling&#8217; (and the technical procedures of the law have been followed to the letter), a court will overlook evidence that the case is fabricated (or originating in negative antagonisms and not deriving from sincere positive motives, as with this case) sand grant the parties special solicitude.</p>
<p>So you occasionally see laws that are on the books that haven&#8217;t been enforced in generations because of a change in social norms that have nearly fallen into a state of desuetude.  But precisely <i>because</i> their enforcement would offend new social norms, they make perfect cases to illustrate the fact that jurisprudence has been moving in the direction of a principle incompatible with the tolerance of that old restriction (or, vice versa, newly comfortable with a restriction that would have been seen as onerous in the past).</p>
<p>So sometimes somebody tries to get themselves arrested by conspicuously and confessedly in an ostentatiously public manner (i.e. <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/12/i-got-myself-arrested-so-i-could-look-inside-the-justice-system/282360/" rel="nofollow">this guy</a>, though for different reasons).  At other times, it really is a conspiracy between the prosecutor and defendant and judge.  </p>
<p>And sometimes someone who doesn&#8217;t want 10 commandments monuments on public ground or crosses at government cemeteries for &#8216;get religion out of the public square&#8217; / &#8216;separation of church and state&#8217; reasons, if they can&#8217;t get rid of them directly, they can try to suggest broadly-offensive statues of Satan and force the issue.</p>
<p>The problem is that once the new principle gets announced, it’s like an invasive species and runs amok unpredictably, eventually tearing up existing laws and norms left and right.  There is no &#8216;limiting principle&#8217;, to use the jargon.  There is no existing jurisprudential structure of competing values that form a framework of reasonable balancing, and so only the present degree of social outrage prevents the most radical implications from being implemented right away.  But as one slides down the slippery slope, the ‘outrageousness’ of something that is now closer to long-standing law declines and the once ‘radical’ position is likely to be ordered by a court in time.</p>
<p>When people argue about these radical consequences that are the logical end-game of the newly enunciated principle – as Scalia often does – they are branded as cooks.  “If you permit gay marriage, then what you are really saying is that there is no constitutional ability for the state to have a moral basis for its marriage policies, and soon enough you’ll have polygamy and …”  &#8211; “Oh, you’re being ridiculous and extreme and making a mockery of yourself!  This case is only about …”</p>
<p>And now, come to think about it, this is a leftward ratchet mechanism that Jim missed.  Time to write another blog post.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VXXC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes it does have false flag all over it. 

For some reason they&#039;re convinced OK is the 4th Reich.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes it does have false flag all over it. </p>
<p>For some reason they&#8217;re convinced OK is the 4th Reich.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

No. &lt;b&gt;Justice consists in the swift and accurate application of the laws.&lt;/b&gt;
The struggle for &lt;i&gt;holiness&lt;/i&gt;, on the other hand...

Where are those tenets from? (Didn&#039;t see them in the linked articles.) I lean towards agreeing with Taylor here, those tenets sound like ACLU not Satanism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws&#8221;</i></p>
<p>No. <b>Justice consists in the swift and accurate application of the laws.</b><br />
The struggle for <i>holiness</i>, on the other hand&#8230;</p>
<p>Where are those tenets from? (Didn&#8217;t see them in the linked articles.) I lean towards agreeing with Taylor here, those tenets sound like ACLU not Satanism.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter A. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter A. Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This has &quot;ACLU false flag&quot; written all over it.  And yes, there is an old cliche that the membership of the ACLU is a subset of the membership of the Unitarian Universalist church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has &#8220;ACLU false flag&#8221; written all over it.  And yes, there is an old cliche that the membership of the ACLU is a subset of the membership of the Unitarian Universalist church.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;@VXXC&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;i&gt;However this means we’ll be able to leave Satan to the Left, that is enemies bloc.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Whew.&lt;/i&gt;


The left-hand path ...

If only it were that simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@VXXC</strong></p>
<p><i>However this means we’ll be able to leave Satan to the Left, that is enemies bloc.</i></p>
<p><i>Whew.</i></p>
<p>The left-hand path &#8230;</p>
<p>If only it were that simple.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fotrkd</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fotrkd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did he accept (and with what devious plans)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did he accept (and with what devious plans)?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32560</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If this abomination is ever built, it has to acquire the popular name &#039;The Great Troll&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this abomination is ever built, it has to acquire the popular name &#8216;The Great Troll&#8217;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The greatest trick the Cathedral ever pulled was offering Satan a tenure-track position at Harvard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The greatest trick the Cathedral ever pulled was offering Satan a tenure-track position at Harvard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jan 2014 00:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What sort of public trolling could NR come up with]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What sort of public trolling could NR come up with</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/cloven/#comment-32551</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VXXC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jan 2014 22:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1908#comment-32551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[However this means we&#039;ll be able to leave Satan to the Left, that is enemies bloc.

Whew.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However this means we&#8217;ll be able to leave Satan to the Left, that is enemies bloc.</p>
<p>Whew.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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