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	<title>Comments on: Ideological Space</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Umlaut</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Umlaut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] their concerns, driving them into polarization, conflict, collaboration, and counter-collaboration. Which Right is right? The potential tension is extraordinary. It cannot possibly be less than [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] their concerns, driving them into polarization, conflict, collaboration, and counter-collaboration. Which Right is right? The potential tension is extraordinary. It cannot possibly be less than [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: To Mayberry, Minerva, or the Matrix? &#124; The Ümlaut</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[To Mayberry, Minerva, or the Matrix? &#124; The Ümlaut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Feb 2014 15:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] diverse than the left, which is merely a spectrum from more to less extreme. That is one reason this seems like a better ideological map than the Nolan Chart. Wyndham Lewis savaged James Joyce, and [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] diverse than the left, which is merely a spectrum from more to less extreme. That is one reason this seems like a better ideological map than the Nolan Chart. Wyndham Lewis savaged James Joyce, and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Zimriel</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34519</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zimriel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Feb 2014 01:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Judging by how Chilean policy went throughout the 1970s: I&#039;d have pushed Pinochet away from the Statism on the left and more toward Darwinism to the right. Better, I&#039;d say Pinochet is where the model collapses.

Certainly Allende *thought* that Pinochet was a fellow-traveler or else he wouldn&#039;t have promoted him. But Pinochet&#039;s guiding star was saving Chile. He was Left when he thought that was what worked, and then he went Right when he thought *that* was what worked.

(Just because Nixon preferred Pinochet to Allende does not meant that Pinochet was, in fact, to the Right of Allende at the time. Nixon preferred Pinochet because Pinochet was more *anti-Soviet* than Allende. Pinochet started his rule as a Latin Tito. It was several years later when Pinochet started to privatise stuff.)

Franco incidentally also started out a statist who turned into a capitalist. &quot;Spanish miracle&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judging by how Chilean policy went throughout the 1970s: I&#8217;d have pushed Pinochet away from the Statism on the left and more toward Darwinism to the right. Better, I&#8217;d say Pinochet is where the model collapses.</p>
<p>Certainly Allende *thought* that Pinochet was a fellow-traveler or else he wouldn&#8217;t have promoted him. But Pinochet&#8217;s guiding star was saving Chile. He was Left when he thought that was what worked, and then he went Right when he thought *that* was what worked.</p>
<p>(Just because Nixon preferred Pinochet to Allende does not meant that Pinochet was, in fact, to the Right of Allende at the time. Nixon preferred Pinochet because Pinochet was more *anti-Soviet* than Allende. Pinochet started his rule as a Latin Tito. It was several years later when Pinochet started to privatise stuff.)</p>
<p>Franco incidentally also started out a statist who turned into a capitalist. &#8220;Spanish miracle&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34346</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Feb 2014 02:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34346</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It makes absolutely no sense to put Darwin in a political idea space; social darwinists maybe, but Darwin and evolutionary theory, as observational theories rather than prescriptive theories, have no place in any political or ideological chart. It is, I feel, manifestly foolish to try and place such incomparables as communism&#039;s fundamentally Hegelian view of reality (i.e. historical determinism) on the same plain as a libertarians insistence on free will (a necessity for any concrete individual responsibility outside of a monopolistic authority). Likewise, the placement of certain positions on this plain is ripe for disagreement, and inst entirely consistent in itself; for example, anarchists, like communists, are invested in the idea of hegelian historical determinism. Notably socialism is not, being instead a fundamentally liberal position, being invested (like most contemporary western politics) in the concept of a dignified free human agent, i.e. one deserving of universal rights with regard to that freedom and dignity. Further, many of these position do not exclude one another, or are vague. What exactly do you mean by &#039;fascism&#039;? How is stalinism distinct from a tyranny? This, rather than speaking any useful insight into the breakdown of political loyalties, instead offers us a view of the authors (mistaken) understanding of the relationship between ideologies. I would argue for one thing that the republicanism/individualism lines are fundamentally connected (back to the enlightenment) in a way that socialism and communism simply arn&#039;t. This things major sin, an all too common one, is a failure to understand the philosophical foundations of all political systems and ideologies. It is the philosophy which is important, the political tribes represented here are just a symptom, and examining and arranging them till the cows come home will do not one iota of good.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes absolutely no sense to put Darwin in a political idea space; social darwinists maybe, but Darwin and evolutionary theory, as observational theories rather than prescriptive theories, have no place in any political or ideological chart. It is, I feel, manifestly foolish to try and place such incomparables as communism&#8217;s fundamentally Hegelian view of reality (i.e. historical determinism) on the same plain as a libertarians insistence on free will (a necessity for any concrete individual responsibility outside of a monopolistic authority). Likewise, the placement of certain positions on this plain is ripe for disagreement, and inst entirely consistent in itself; for example, anarchists, like communists, are invested in the idea of hegelian historical determinism. Notably socialism is not, being instead a fundamentally liberal position, being invested (like most contemporary western politics) in the concept of a dignified free human agent, i.e. one deserving of universal rights with regard to that freedom and dignity. Further, many of these position do not exclude one another, or are vague. What exactly do you mean by &#8216;fascism&#8217;? How is stalinism distinct from a tyranny? This, rather than speaking any useful insight into the breakdown of political loyalties, instead offers us a view of the authors (mistaken) understanding of the relationship between ideologies. I would argue for one thing that the republicanism/individualism lines are fundamentally connected (back to the enlightenment) in a way that socialism and communism simply arn&#8217;t. This things major sin, an all too common one, is a failure to understand the philosophical foundations of all political systems and ideologies. It is the philosophy which is important, the political tribes represented here are just a symptom, and examining and arranging them till the cows come home will do not one iota of good.</p>
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		<title>By: Vxxc</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34343</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vxxc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Feb 2014 00:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It needs Intersectionality. That will complete us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It needs Intersectionality. That will complete us.</p>
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		<title>By: survivingbabel</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34330</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[survivingbabel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s quite satisfying that this triangle&#039;s center is Putin, Pinochet, and Pat Buchanan. Privileging the Progressive position on political philosophy in one&#039;s practical paradigm is a faux pas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s quite satisfying that this triangle&#8217;s center is Putin, Pinochet, and Pat Buchanan. Privileging the Progressive position on political philosophy in one&#8217;s practical paradigm is a faux pas.</p>
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		<title>By: Hurlock</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hurlock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, the definition given on the graph is stupid. In fact a lot of anarcho-capitalists would have no problem with the statement &quot;“Humans can be property”. As long as it is voluntary, a lot of austrians have actually argued that slavery is ok. The greatest value of anarcho-capitalists is definately not &quot;freedom from the collective&quot;, but rather the upholding of the non-aggression principle and private property rights. Freedom from the collective is a value insofar as the collective is in some way using violence against the individual. 

All valid points on Jefferson, but it is undeniable that he was a confederalist strongly opposed to centralized power. I think that pretty much puts him somewhere in the blue section. 

But yes, if we are to keep strictly to the definition given in the graph, you would probably be right. Which is why the definition given is incorrect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the definition given on the graph is stupid. In fact a lot of anarcho-capitalists would have no problem with the statement &#8220;“Humans can be property”. As long as it is voluntary, a lot of austrians have actually argued that slavery is ok. The greatest value of anarcho-capitalists is definately not &#8220;freedom from the collective&#8221;, but rather the upholding of the non-aggression principle and private property rights. Freedom from the collective is a value insofar as the collective is in some way using violence against the individual. </p>
<p>All valid points on Jefferson, but it is undeniable that he was a confederalist strongly opposed to centralized power. I think that pretty much puts him somewhere in the blue section. </p>
<p>But yes, if we are to keep strictly to the definition given in the graph, you would probably be right. Which is why the definition given is incorrect.</p>
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		<title>By: Saddam Hussein's Whirling Aluminium Tubes</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Saddam Hussein's Whirling Aluminium Tubes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m probably putting more emphasis on the definitions printed on the graph than you guys are.

&quot;Humans can be property&quot; v.s. &quot;Human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value&quot;.

Jefferson doesn&#039;t fit in the blue unless you give each axis more sensible definitions than the ones that are printed on the graph.

Jefferson did believe that humans can be property but he did not believe that human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value.

I only know of one society that could be said to believe that human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value:

The Ik. 

-----------------------------------------
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi798.htm

The Ik were nomad hunters in Northern Uganda. The government made their hunting grounds into a national park and relocated them. They had to take up farming.

In 1972 anthropologist C.M. Turnbull wrote about the Ik in their new life. They laugh only at one another&#039;s misfortunes. They teach their children to steal food from the old. They are solitary and ill-humored. &quot;They breed without love,&quot; says Thomas, and &quot;they defecate on one another&#039;s doorsteps.&quot;

The social roles of the Ik have been unthreaded. And with that, they&#039;ve lost all sense of community. Each Ik is now an isolated one-man tribe unto himself. Interdependency is gone; and the Ik no longer sing. 

-----------------------------------------------

People may believe in something they call &quot;individualism&quot; and &quot;freedom&quot; I don&#039;t think they mean it like that. There aren&#039;t enough people who really believe that &quot;Human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value&quot; to make it worthy of an axis on the graph. Without the collective, where would you get your status points?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m probably putting more emphasis on the definitions printed on the graph than you guys are.</p>
<p>&#8220;Humans can be property&#8221; v.s. &#8220;Human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value&#8221;.</p>
<p>Jefferson doesn&#8217;t fit in the blue unless you give each axis more sensible definitions than the ones that are printed on the graph.</p>
<p>Jefferson did believe that humans can be property but he did not believe that human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value.</p>
<p>I only know of one society that could be said to believe that human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value:</p>
<p>The Ik. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
<a href="http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi798.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi798.htm</a></p>
<p>The Ik were nomad hunters in Northern Uganda. The government made their hunting grounds into a national park and relocated them. They had to take up farming.</p>
<p>In 1972 anthropologist C.M. Turnbull wrote about the Ik in their new life. They laugh only at one another&#8217;s misfortunes. They teach their children to steal food from the old. They are solitary and ill-humored. &#8220;They breed without love,&#8221; says Thomas, and &#8220;they defecate on one another&#8217;s doorsteps.&#8221;</p>
<p>The social roles of the Ik have been unthreaded. And with that, they&#8217;ve lost all sense of community. Each Ik is now an isolated one-man tribe unto himself. Interdependency is gone; and the Ik no longer sing. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>People may believe in something they call &#8220;individualism&#8221; and &#8220;freedom&#8221; I don&#8217;t think they mean it like that. There aren&#8217;t enough people who really believe that &#8220;Human freedom from the collective is the ultimate value&#8221; to make it worthy of an axis on the graph. Without the collective, where would you get your status points?</p>
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		<title>By: fakeusername</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fakeusername]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This could be ameliorated by switching the places of city-state and tribe, since the latter is a smaller form of organization and hence closer to individualism than the city-state anyway.  This would spread out the paleoconservatives to flesh out of the gap within the blue section.  Also, I think it would be an improvement to simply replace individualism with anarchism and to have anarchocapitalism lean on the right side.  This makes sense to me because individualism is an ideal, whereas, like communism and absolutism, anarchism is a point of convergence (well, really extreme dis-integration but you get the point).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This could be ameliorated by switching the places of city-state and tribe, since the latter is a smaller form of organization and hence closer to individualism than the city-state anyway.  This would spread out the paleoconservatives to flesh out of the gap within the blue section.  Also, I think it would be an improvement to simply replace individualism with anarchism and to have anarchocapitalism lean on the right side.  This makes sense to me because individualism is an ideal, whereas, like communism and absolutism, anarchism is a point of convergence (well, really extreme dis-integration but you get the point).</p>
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		<title>By: Hurlock</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/ideological-space/#comment-34295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hurlock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2059#comment-34295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Admin said.

Hostility towards political structures is a defining characteristic of anarcho-capitalists specifically. It would be quite ridiculous for someone from that corner to attempt any serious political participation, not to mention that the moment he does so, he would simply no longer fit  the definition. 

And it&#039;s not like that corner doesn&#039;t have it&#039;s due share of influential historical figures. A lot of Austrian Economists and classical liberals fit in there quite nicely. (and figures like Rothbard, Hoppe, etc. would even place at the very top) A lot of historical figures can fit there as well. Jefferson comes to mind immediately. (somewhere in the Confederalism part, which I find suprisingly empty) 
And the argument that the blue part of the triangle is obsolete in modern political reality holds with equal force against the green part as well. (in fact the blue corner actually has had a lot more adherents in recent history) 
To reduce the right to just monarchism is overly simplistic. 

A crucial thing to remember about the difference between the three corners is their perspectives on power. Both the green and red corner support the idea of absolute political power (but of a radically opposite kind). The blue corner however, is extremely hostile to any such ideas (and this is why it is positioned at the exact opposite of totalitarian side of the triangle). It&#039;s most fundamental tenet is that absolute power is always absolutely dangerous, therefore power has to be dispersed as much as possible. Power monopoly is bad (for everyone but the monopolist, of course) and probably the most dangerous thing you could have. Therefore the ideological radicalization of the blue corner goes something like this: (classical) liberalism&gt;separatism&gt;confederalism&gt;anarcho-capitalism.  
But of course, even if extremely hostile to the very idea of consolidated power, if faced with the choice between absolutism of the leftist kind (social-democratic cathedralism) and absolutism of the rightist kind (from fascism to monarchism), the anarcho-capitalist (Hoppe) does not hesitate - absolute monarchy it is! 

&quot; a) an ideological weapon to manipulate silly Anglos&quot; This could actually make a lot of sense, but history suggests otherwise. Both Liberalism and Republicanism historically precede Democratism and the latter could in fact be considered a corruption of the former. The same way communist totalitarism of the stalinist kind can be seen as a corruption of absolute monarchism. (which is why it is so easy to see North Korea as a quasi-monarchy, which is precisely what the Cathedral does so often) Yet, we all agree that communist authoritarianism has nothing to do with monarchism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Admin said.</p>
<p>Hostility towards political structures is a defining characteristic of anarcho-capitalists specifically. It would be quite ridiculous for someone from that corner to attempt any serious political participation, not to mention that the moment he does so, he would simply no longer fit  the definition. </p>
<p>And it&#8217;s not like that corner doesn&#8217;t have it&#8217;s due share of influential historical figures. A lot of Austrian Economists and classical liberals fit in there quite nicely. (and figures like Rothbard, Hoppe, etc. would even place at the very top) A lot of historical figures can fit there as well. Jefferson comes to mind immediately. (somewhere in the Confederalism part, which I find suprisingly empty)<br />
And the argument that the blue part of the triangle is obsolete in modern political reality holds with equal force against the green part as well. (in fact the blue corner actually has had a lot more adherents in recent history)<br />
To reduce the right to just monarchism is overly simplistic. </p>
<p>A crucial thing to remember about the difference between the three corners is their perspectives on power. Both the green and red corner support the idea of absolute political power (but of a radically opposite kind). The blue corner however, is extremely hostile to any such ideas (and this is why it is positioned at the exact opposite of totalitarian side of the triangle). It&#8217;s most fundamental tenet is that absolute power is always absolutely dangerous, therefore power has to be dispersed as much as possible. Power monopoly is bad (for everyone but the monopolist, of course) and probably the most dangerous thing you could have. Therefore the ideological radicalization of the blue corner goes something like this: (classical) liberalism&gt;separatism&gt;confederalism&gt;anarcho-capitalism.<br />
But of course, even if extremely hostile to the very idea of consolidated power, if faced with the choice between absolutism of the leftist kind (social-democratic cathedralism) and absolutism of the rightist kind (from fascism to monarchism), the anarcho-capitalist (Hoppe) does not hesitate &#8211; absolute monarchy it is! </p>
<p>&#8221; a) an ideological weapon to manipulate silly Anglos&#8221; This could actually make a lot of sense, but history suggests otherwise. Both Liberalism and Republicanism historically precede Democratism and the latter could in fact be considered a corruption of the former. The same way communist totalitarism of the stalinist kind can be seen as a corruption of absolute monarchism. (which is why it is so easy to see North Korea as a quasi-monarchy, which is precisely what the Cathedral does so often) Yet, we all agree that communist authoritarianism has nothing to do with monarchism.</p>
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