Oh, Spengler …

This is Cathedralism dialed up to 11:

On moral grounds I sympathize with the African-American view, but there is an even more urgent reason to rip down the Confederate flag. Our refusal to look squarely at the evil character of the American Confederacy turned us into idiots. It may be a bit late to remedy this national lapse in mental capacity, but one has to start somewhere. … That is American exceptionalism: the belief that America can be a better kind of nation than the ethnocentric nations of Europe, in emulat[i]on of the biblical Israel. That was the impulse of the Founders, born, as Harvard’s Eric Nelson explains in The Hebrew Republic, of the English Revolution’s attempt to design a polity on biblical principles. The Civil War destroyed this impulse, because it killed too many of the New Englanders who believed, as Lincoln put it, that America was “an almost chosen nation.” … Protestantism in America shifted from saving souls to social engineering. The sin of the South was too great to acknowledge; after the sacrifice of nearly 30% of its military-age man and the reduction of its standard of living by half, the defeated white South could not admit to itself that it had gotten precisely what was coming to it for wickedness of slavery. … the Confederates fought with desperate courage, but for rapine rather than right. Crushing them was the noblest thing the United States ever did. … The South could not live in the knowledge that its heroic sacrifices were offered in a wicked cause, and its response was to excise from religion the notion of sin and virtue, and replace it with social engineering. … The Civil War made us stupid. It persuaded us that we were better off playing God than leaving the outcome to a God who might demand such terrible sacrifices of us once again. … The trauma of the Civil War drove us towards Wilsonian Universalism, which lives on in the form of George W. Bush’s “world democratic revolution.” America confronts a number of cultures that are bent on genosuicide. We fail to recognize the symptoms, because we shut our eyes to one of modern history’s most striking examples of civilizational self-destruction, namely the American South. America can’t hope to make sense of the world if it refuses to think about its own history.

Spengler appends some crucial explanatory remarks:

As many people have pointed out (Michael Novak, Meir Soloveichik), there is a biblical (covenantal) as well as a natural law (contractual) component to the Founding; in my view the covenantal component is primary and in need trumps the natural-law component. … The Constitutional mechanism broke down (in fact, the slave party controlled the government for almost all of the period 1800-1860, and an eruption of apocalyptic spirit was required to correct it — bringing to the fore America’s Hebraic-Protestant mission. Of course Lincoln ran roughshod over elements of the Constitution but this, in my view, was what the Talmud calls “sin for the sake of heaven.” The natural-law apparatus (checks and balances, separation of powers, states’ rights, etc.) is the plumbing of government, and it is certainly necessary, but it is contingent on the higher, covenantal imperative.

Yes, it’s a religion.

ADDED: ‘Genosuicide’ (just in case that looked like an uncorrected typo).

August 4, 2015admin 69 Comments »
FILED UNDER :Religion

TAGGED WITH : , , ,

69 Responses to this entry

  • Erebus Says:

    Spengler?

    …The real Spengler would doubtless disagree with every point. (Some of his thoughts on democracy and equality are here.) In fact, it’s fairly safe to say that Oswald Spengler would sympathize with the old ersatz-Aristocratic South, who could at least claim that they are an authentic people unified by shared values and experience. As for the USA in general: “There is neither a real nation, nor a real state.”

    The article is, of course, absolute nonsense. Every coherent argument is a non sequitur which ignores important circumstances and developments in Europe and elsewhere. The author seems to believe that the USA exists in a vacuum. (“[Due to the civil war,] Protestantism in America shifted…” — well, what was happening in Europe at that time?)

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 3:20 pm Reply | Quote
  • Nick B. Steves Says:

    Definitely needs a new fake name. His real name would in fact be an exemplary show of truth in advertising.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 3:28 pm Reply | Quote
  • RorschachRomanov Says:

    Joseph de Maistre, as we know, thought that it was necessary that sovereignty be sublime, ineffable, mysterious. Plug the authority of decision into the mundane, and the authority immediately loses its ground of demarcation between it and power- the Westphilian Order is rapidly collapsing as these borrowed theological concepts have no existence reference anymore; there’s nothing, not even illusion, to back up the semantics.

    “Wilsonian Universalism.” It was pure bombastry from the very beginning, the dying Animal, the most ferocious. As the “plumbing” implodes, the covenantal imperative will prove our author correct: “the destiny of democracy is fascism.” This is endogenous to democracy.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 3:37 pm Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Clearly, if a Jewish neoconservative says America was founded on Jewish neoconservatism, this proves moldbug was right.

    Nick Land is too sophisticated to buy into the notion that the interests of “Joos” and non-Jews may not always perfectly align. But he’ll jump at the opportunity to try to stir up primitive hatred of a people who for the most part are no longer around in significantly unmixed or ethnically conscious form to defend themselves — in this case hilariously picking as his fodder the nakedly ethnocentric, ahistorical editorializing of a member of his wife’s tribe.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    You don’t think Goldman understands who he’s talking to? I’m sure you’ve seen the figures for American evangelical Protestant philosemitism (which significantly exceed those for Jewish philosemitism by any measurable metric).

    Also, try not to be gratuitously unpleasant. It doesn’t help to promote your case. I realize you think there’s a war on, but not in my front room please (unless you want to be kicked out of it).

    [Reply]

    John Hannon Reply:

    Indeed – who wants nazis in their front room (other than a fellow nazi)? Just wondering whether, when you get the likes of N/A banging on about your wife’s bloodline as if it’s some kind of game-changer, you don’t ever take a step back and think “how the hell did i get here?”
    What a long. strange (and entertaining) journey it’s been from The Thirst for Annihilation and the acid-drenched late 90’s Mad Black Deluezian Virtual Future days – via Satanism, Hyperstition and all that occult numerology business – to this NRx engagement with “reality.”
    Where to next?

    [Reply]

    RorschachRomanov Reply:

    Bu-but das RAAAACCCIIST! Hey, thanks for your astute non-observation there N/A. It’s not without reason that “cuckservative” has become a thing. To interpret Land’s post as hapless ethno/race baiting is mind numbingly inane. You’re missing the point dammit!

    It may come as a shock to the Kevin MacDonald worshippers, but THIS IS BIGGER THAN THE JEWS.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 3:53 pm Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Nick,

    No, Evangelicals are not more philosemitic than Jews. You’re apparently thinking of the fact that Evangelicals express much warmer feelings toward Jews than Jews do toward them.

    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2014/07/16/evangelical-christians-love-jews-but-the-feeling-not-mutual/NUYnkEBJF7lFFgCdoigxdJ/story.html

    And the current brand of evangelical philosemitism is a product of the past century and the past few decades in particular, not something that sprang up in a world free from Jewish ethnic activism.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 4:17 pm Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    “Also, try not to be gratuitously unpleasant. It doesn’t help to promote your case.”

    Outsideness ?@Outsideness
    If any of the eth-nat hardcore on my TL are in the mood to blow a bloodvessel tonight, I recommend this: http://pjmedia.com/spengler/2015/06/22/the-confederate-battle-flag-is-what-makes-america-stupid/

    Preston S. Brooks ?@Rebel_Bill 2h2 hours ago
    @Outsideness Actually it didn’t kill nearly enough of those yankee bastards.

    Preston S. Brooks ?@Rebel_Bill 2h2 hours ago
    @skyagusta @Outsideness Many New Englanders paid for criminals to replace them in the draft.

    Outsideness ?@Outsideness 2h2 hours ago
    @Rebel_Bill @skyagusta Understandable, since they had important Unitarian-moral research to do.

    Outsideness ?@Outsideness
    @skyagusta @Rebel_Bill But, as you know, a broken Harvard fingernail hurts God more than an annihilated battalion of midwesterners.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    So you’re going to have a go at my (completely uninvolved, liberal) wife in revenge for some tweets in my TL about the Yankees? That’s some classy stuff.

    The fact you guys find it impossible to stick with an argument, but have to go for people’s families at the first opportunity (as in the JayMan case), explains a lot about why I’m in the tiny minority of those still prepared to engage. It’s not a blank check. If you can’t keep it impersonal, do it somewhere else.

    … And don’t come back with a justification. I’m not unrealistic enough to expect an apology, but if there’s any more attention paid to my family than yours in this conversation going forward, you’re gone for good. My folks haven’t contracted into this fever pit, they’re not going to be sucked into it.

    [Reply]

    Anon314 Reply:

    I feel Jayman is pathetic for bringing out his wife in his defense when he loses arguments with the white nationalists he despises. You dont see Razib Khan bringing out his white wife as some kind of argument, but then again, he doesnt see the Salter/Harpending concept of genetic interests as some kind of evil that must be purged from HBD. I dont get why everyone else is getting attacked for this when Jayman continues to use his marriage as some kind of final resort just like he has done repeatedly in the past.

    [Reply]

    Mr. Zeepie Reply:

    Derb, a fellow sinogynephile, has gone through this before in various comments sections. Something about coupling with E. Asian women drives a certain element into fits of jealousy. An invitation to physical violence cows them, as Derb has proved on several occasions.

    #NickWivesMatter

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 4:17 pm Reply | Quote
  • Oldvannes Says:

    “Crushing them was the noblest thing the United States ever did. ”

    Slavery would have died and was dying its own death. The war was unnecessary.

    Upon his election Lincoln began raising troops for the sole purpose of invading his own country. He drove the South to rebellion with such actions.

    800,000 dead; 250,000 wounded. Wealth and treasure squandered. The end of an agrarian order now subject to the manipulations of federalism and financial interests.

    One civilization/race brought to butchering one another over the fate of a lesser civilization/race. The only time this has ever happened with such widespread slaughter. There were no other choices? No one else ended slavery in this manner and at such costs.

    That war never ended. It should be known as The Eternal Civil War. In the eyes of those who drove us to war redemption is now defined as the sterilization of European-American civilization. They will reap a collapse and an eruption of violence.

    [Reply]

    neovictorian23 Reply:

    The war was unnecessary.

    Upon his election Lincoln began raising troops for the sole purpose of invading his own country. He drove the South to rebellion with such actions.

    Apologies, but this is just spectacularly thick-headed. The War was “unnecessary,” if Lincoln had just said, “Sure boys, I’ll sign off on 1/3 of the nation going its own way!” The secession had already started before Lincoln took office. We can argue whether Lincoln was the greatest man in history, the worst tyrant and murderer and blackguard in history, or something in between, but as the leader of a nation he could either uphold his oaths or abdicate.

    Both sides had a lot of people that were spoiling for war, to “settle” the enormous pus-filled boil that had been growing since 1789. Yes, if Douglas had been elected the secession would have probably happened without war, or at least the same war. In that case the war would have been civil wars intrastate, border wars between states, and other internal strife.

    True, Spengler’s “Crushing them was the noblest thing the United States ever did” is the worst kind of post facto modernist historicism. But no stupider than the usual line about how WWII was a “Good War” for the US to crush “fascism,” and, incidentally, empower the Soviet Union to dominate, enslave half of Europe and murder a few millions more for the next 45 years.

    [Reply]

    Oldvannes Reply:

    “Apologies, but this is just spectacularly thick-headed. The War was “unnecessary,” if Lincoln had just said, “Sure boys, I’ll sign off on 1/3 of the nation going its own way!” The secession had already started before Lincoln took office”

    Where did I state that sessions started with Lincoln’s election? I said the “rebellion” WHICH he fueled by raising troops to invade his own nation.

    No other nation with slavery ended slavery with a civil war killed each other in the 100s of thousands.

    Even if session had be allowed to go ahead, slavery would have died a natural death and the North and South would have developed a peaceful working relationship or even reunified.

    War was not an upholding of his oath it was its very opposite. The South had a right to separate. Lincoln had no right to raise an army to attack either Americans or the Southern Confederacy. Tyranny and needless death and destruction is his legacy.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    Although I think Lincoln was a pretty smart guy I think he made the wrong choice however it might not have been possible to let the south have their little tantrum. The south really wanted the war they saboutaged their own chances at a different presidency twice walking out of the convention and seized federal property before lincoln took office.I agree Lincoln should have let it simmer down and preserve the constitution not the union i think it might have produced a better outcome but it might well have produced a south aftican situation on our borders in the modern era that could suck. certainly he should have repatriated all the slaves letting them run free has been a real bad idea

    [Reply]

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    We really need to get into the 21st century.

    There’s not going to be another Confederacy because the core interest of the Confederacy – Slavery – is long gone as is any need for it.

    The Southerners now are mistaking the past for the present and insult for interest.

    Secession and War need “legs” to march on, and those legs are interest.

    PS – the South’s Casus Belli was Lincoln’s policy was to contain Slavery so it would die a natural death – they needed to expand it to survive in antebellum economic form. Their policy was exactly to expand slavery into Cuba, Mexico and the Western States and Lincoln would have checked that, allowing Slavery to die a natural death. The South chose secession and war instead because it was their core interest -50% of GDP and fear of freed slaves. No such interest exists today. There are no legs to march on.

    What there is; an open border to the South, and if you live in the South that war is far more threatening to you. The Southern border of the United States are the ratlines for reinforcements coming North, as well as the marches of actual conquest.

    You’re looking the wrong way Reb. You might not want to turn up your nose at actual Northerners, you’re probably going to need them.

    [Reply]

    Oldvannes Reply:

    The South chose secession Lincoln chose and instigated war.

    The opposition to slavery in the South was significant and growing and would have died on the vine. Most Southerners understood this they just didn’t want to do so under the boot heel of the Northern elites.

    Thus after Lincoln’s election the secession of the Southern states. They would have lived their lives and allowed slavery to die a natural death and altered their society by degrees.

    But Lincoln decided to raise an army for the purpose of invading the South. A group of belligerents in SC or MA raising a Militia is one thing. The POTUS raising an army is another. It was that act that fueled and drove both sides to war.

    No other nation ended slavery by slaughtering one another over the fate of their slave population. It took the South almost 100 years to recover from that loss of blood and treasure.

    What fueled the anti slavery movement in the South was the economic disaster slavery visited upon Whites outside of the slave economy – which was most Whites. It depressed wages and stiffled opportunity. A problem similar to the economy of the later Roman Empire.

    Yes, the border to the South is problem #1. But the problem with securing it comes out of largely Northern enclaves.

    For the record I’m not a Reb but a Yank who lives in Mexifornia and whose great great grandfather fought in a Maine regiment.

    [Reply]

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    Whiny tough guys are the WORST.

    The South didn’t just raise militias and secede. It raided Federal Armories left and right, seized Federal Installations – by force if without fighting.

    Maj Anderson having his back to the land and only the sea to his front- the fortifications on shore faced the ocean- elected to wisely move his troops to Ft. Sumpter before they could be taken prisoner passively. When the Federals attempting to relieve or supply the besieged garrison the South after deliberating and knowing in the war council they were initiating war – fired on Sumpter until it surrendered.

    If you want to own it : then FUCKING OWN IT.

    I’m tired of hearing that aggressive war to support an aggressive policy of expansion of slavery – the actual quarrel was that Lincoln would not allow slavery to spread past the States where it existed – that such a war of choice [after choosing rebellion and secession] was actually the poor little [slave owning] aggrieved party because due mostly to internal fantastic incompetence, selfishness and corruption the South lost – that means their the ones aggressed against…NO.

    And the legal position was: Treason. There’s never a Constitutional or Legal right to commit rebellion, you simply throw the Iron Dice of War. Reflect on that before proceeding further now…which proceeds possibly without your consent anyway.

    You sound like white Ta-Hesi Coates. Quit whining dammit. You started a fight of dubious justice – as if the south was ever going to end slavery – and lost.

    You might want to get into the 21st century as the next trial is upon us.

    Come to think of it maybe the winner should move all the niggers out of the North where we don’t want and can’t seem to digest them back to where they belong. When you start whining you sound very much alike. Whiny tough guys are the WORST.

    You and the niggers can all fester together whining about how it’s the Yankee’s fault.

    Say hello to the Mexicans…I’m sure they’re fascinated by all this…

    If you want to own it : then FUCKING OWN IT. Whiny tough guys are the WORST.

    [Reply]

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    ah Celtic Temper.

    It’s not the South that irks me, it’s the Civil War re-enactors.

    That won’t last 3 days.

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 4:35 pm Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Nick,

    I have not said anything about JayMan’s family, and JayMan is the one who chose to bring his family into it in an attempt to prod ethnically conscious whites.

    I think it’s interesting that you happen to have a Jewish wife, and that you happened to latch onto reactionary politics when you came across moldbug and discovered a worldview that would absolve Jews of any responsibility for the state of the world today. The same was apparently the case for foseti. This is not an argument against moldbuggism. But the moldbug school of history is not something that requires serious refutation. It’s self-evidently idiotic. In neither of your cases did I initially assume you had Jewish relatives; but when I found out you did, it went some way toward explaining the appeal of moldbug for you.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    That’s deliriously wrong, in fact. I had no idea at all about Moldbug’s ancestry when I got attached to his thinking — but was attracted to his Ultra-Calvinist hypothesis on its merits (as I had been with the Walter Russel Mead version — but I don’t know, does WRM have Jewish relatives?) Look, I understand how this stuff is central to your mode of analytical apprehension, but could you do me a favor and try to at least apply a little subtlety to the way you execute it? It’s kind of a basic thing that people don’t want their families dragged into arguments they’ve had no part in fostering.

    [Reply]

    Contemplationist Reply:

    N/A appears to be very much invested in the idea that the ONLY REASON we were attracted to NRx is because it let ‘the jews off the hook,’ so to speak. Whereas, as far as I’ve observed, people who were vehemently against discussion of the JQ, have become far more amenable to it after coming into contact with NRx. This has certainly been my own evolution – I’m far more ‘anti-semitic’ now than I was pre-NRx. But the genetic fallacy is all N/A has to dismiss our ideas.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    I was just writing a similar comment that disapeared. so i second yours

    If anything people who would never before have considered the intersection of race and society a legitimate topic now do including many jews half jews and jew spouses and friends of jews like myself, what i think makes this possible is its not personal, its a quest for reality. Its true that once the box is opened feelings can emerge probably despair is the first and anger certainly can come into the mix and defensiveness but at the end of day its about truth. Take jayman the guys black and a liberal you have to give him credit as do you to yarvin and nick and the other jews its going to be harder. Maybe you actually believe in a jewish illuminatti pulling all the strings in the world then what can we say but go in peace [ or think about why and see if you can flip them } but if the truth might be somewhere in the middle i would credit all those willing to look at these questions. honestly wn needs friends and i doubt im the only sympathizer but we may have motives other than hate

    Jefferson Reply:

    Moldbug in no way absolves my people of responsibility for the current degeneration. He simply provides a compelling argument that we are not a necessary component for a civilization to fall apart. Most Jews just listen to what their rabbi tells them; some use Jon Lipshitz as their surrogate rabbi. Some Jews are outright evil (Soros), and some have the same general goals that you do.

    Try to put yourself in my shoes for a second. Evangelicals are considerably more philosemetic than secular (golden-calf) Jews, yet I’m constantly having to reassure my cloistered Jewish friends that what their communist Rabbi taught them about Christians is bs. Any Jewish denomination that isn’t orthodox has been rapidly infected with the same crap that mainline Christians have caught just in my lifetime (the shul I was bar mitzvahed in just started gay marrying this year), and now I’m catching feminist crap from members of my orthodox congregation. It feels like Moses coming down the mountain, seeing the golden calf and saying “hey, why not?” The only Jews around in a generation will be the ultra orthodox, but they’re basically pacifists and will get culled the second the secular Jews and American evangelicals aren’t around to protect them. Even if it was Jews who took over from the wasps and wrecked the world, why the hell did the wasps let them!? Our history is chock full of cautionary tales against democracy; if the wasps wanted it anyway, the least they could do was limit which Jews were allowed in the system (hint, it’s the 5-10% that were members at the gentile golf courses).

    If you guys get your way though, it won’t be Soros and his ilk hanging from lamp posts, it’ll be the unthinkers who just went along to get along. I’ll take the WN crowd seriously when they drop Chomsky or Soros instead of a security guard at a JCC.

    [Reply]

    Slumlord Reply:

    Even if it was Jews who took over from the wasps and wrecked the world, why the hell did the wasps let them!?

    Exactly! So many of the Goy are too stupid to see this. The problem is Protestantism, which allows the believer to semanitcally shift the meaning of any word with complete justification. “Sinning for heaven” becomes perfectly reasonable when you are fighting on the side of illusory angels.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    being a good lapsed catholic I would love to agree with you and say thats what you get when you make everyman a pope. Unfortunately it deeper Christianity is plainly a lefty religion, jesus is just as much a revolutionary as jefferson,and his message is basically out with justice [the letter of the law] in with social justice [the spirit of the law] The whole thing is self abnegation brotherly love to the extent of turning cheeks and giving muggers your cloak as well as your shoes.And since im on the topic ill add for the hundredth time DENRX joining with christians is likely to lead to the situation the GOP is in.And it will leave DENRX open to the same liberal attacks of hypocrisy and irrational ism as conservatives of yore.
    Just for fun Ill add N/A if you really want to blame Jews not Protestants just claim Christianity itself is a Jewish conspiracy

    jay Reply:

    ”The problem is Protestantism, which allows the believer to semanitcally shift the meaning of any word with complete justification.”

    No the problem is the fact that people lie and shifting the very meaning of words to mean what they want. Like they do with “Rape” or”Abuse” or “Violence. False equivalency is a very damaging result of such semantic manipulation.

    Likewise one can translate the word as accurately and preach the gospel as clearly as possible but heretics always find a way.

    fnn Reply:

    Even if it was Jews who took over from the wasps and wrecked the world, why the hell did the wasps let them!?

    I keep trying to find wasps to get angry at-but I can’t find them. I haven’t been able to find a white English tourist or expat to go after for at least two years.

    R. Reply:

    Black hat jews.. Are pacifist?

    Is that just out of laziness/other interests, or is it innate like in Amish?

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    Excellence consists in deriving shekels without fighting at all.

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    As much of a propaganda boon as it was for us (/pol/acks attempting to wrest leadership of the Redpill movement away from the NRx elites and back to the more neurotypical of us) that Yarvin’s gefilte status was uncovered , and as entertaining as /aristoi/ was for all of two minutes, concocting a happy merchant conspiracy around Moldbug, Land and Whatshername is an obvious nonstarter. I had no idea MM was was a dreidel spinner until late 2013, and these NRx noobs didn’t find out until way later.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    The economical ‘Hebrews are often smart and witty’ theory isn’t likely to fly with someone as far gone as n/a.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    The only threat /pol/ faces is people who don’t know when to leave /pol/ in /pol/.

    an inanimate aluminum tube Reply:

    “I had no idea MM was was a dreidel spinner until late 2013, and these NRx noobs didn’t find out until way later.”

    He wrote this in 2009.

    “Moving on: to the Jews. Obviously this is a favorite subject here at UR, which is a pro-Jew blog and always has been. (Jabotinsky is my nigga.) The road to the New State is long, long, long, and we have barely started down it. But we know one thing: the New State will be a Jew State. Or at least, it will be chock-full of Jews. (And of Tamil Brahmins, for the same reason.)”

    And iirc it was pretty obvious by then, if not quite a bit sooner.

    NRX / The Dark Enlightenment didn’t coalesce until much later, so it is safe to say that those who were reading closely always knew. Certainly I don’t recall a time when I didn’t know.

    But by the time NRX really coalesced, Moldbug had mostly stopped blogging. So the conspiracy idea works better if you leave Moldbug out of it.

    Everyone has biases, Moldbug was pretty open about his. And he was writing in a different era when the alt-right was less developed and people still took stuff like libertarianism seriously. His individual contribution was almost certainly a strong net positive in pushing people farther right.

    But the movement that later arose, created an ideology out of a bunch of blog posts and began running his stuff into the ground was bound to amplify any existing problems and / or biases in his writing. Every blogger is going to say stuff that is wrong or biased at times, but it is easy to skim over it and ignore it when it is just a blog post. Not so if it is made into an ideology and turned into a holy text.

    But that would be the case for any blogger who acquired a set of fanatical disciples dedicated to overanalyzing his writing. Imagine if Steve Sailer quit blogging and a set of fanatical disciples showed up and created an ideology based on overanalyzing carefully selected his blog posts from 2007. He’d immediately become a much more controversial figure and it would be easy to attribute questionable motives to him retroactively. Just imagine, citizenists furiously signalling how superior they are all.the. time.

    But Moldbug doesn’t seem to have sought out these disciples, he was mostly done blogging by the time they showed up.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    “And iirc it was pretty obvious by then, if not quite a bit sooner.”

    Not really – Jew-friendliness is easily chalked up to high-IQ preference. I could blog for years about my own (better) neocameralist state (with blackjack and hookers), and how it would easily be at least 50% Chinese engineers, but you still couldn’t reliably infer my ping pong prowess or love of tracksuits based on that alone.

    PS Moldbug stopped blogging because he took the ironpill hard and discovered squats and oats.

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 4:44 pm Reply | Quote
  • Oh, Spengler … | Reaction Times Says:

    […] Source: Outside In […]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 6:37 pm Reply | Quote
  • michael Says:

    “”sin for the sake of heaven.” sums it up

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 6:57 pm Reply | Quote
  • Kgaard Says:

    This is weak stuff from Goldman. Or rather, closer to manipulative. I semi-know Goldman and understand much of his intellectual background. He has some spotty elements mixed with some very good analytical work.

    He links to his essay on Kierkegaard so I went and tried to read that. Gave up halfway through. Really could not understand what he was trying to say. I could not make a connection between the Kierkegaard he was talking about and the Kierkegaard I know. The notion that Kierkegaard somehow would have approved of the North’s role in the Civil War? I find that rather insane. That’s not what he was about at all.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    The whole article was boilerplate cathedral completely internally inconsistent,They have a lord of the flies theology. But you can get a sense of how completely they feel they own now the western canon how sure they are that no one reads at all anymore, and yet how starved the BOBO is for old testament brimstone and philosopher stone that they can brazenly give them blarney stone

    [Reply]

    Kgaard Reply:

    Yeah the thing is … Goldman has a very non-Cathedral intellectual history for the most part. Which is what makes this pretty strange. The whole SCHTICK of his Spengler column at the Asia Times was political incorrectness — and now he comes out with this. Depressing.

    [Reply]

    ivvenalis Reply:

    Goldman is an intelligent man deranged by ethnocentrism. You’d think this would be a cautionary tale, but some of our fellow right-wingers don’t quite seem to get the joke.

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    “yet how starved the BOBO is for old testament brimstone and philosopher stone that they can brazenly give them blarney stone.”

    I think that winz the Internetz today…

    [Reply]

    fnn Reply:

    I once saw Goldman (attached to Lyndon La Rouche’s ear ) in 1973.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 7:09 pm Reply | Quote
  • Oldvannes Says:

    “certainly he should have repatriated all the slaves letting them run free has been a real bad idea”

    No argument here and the central reason why I see this as an Eternal Civil War.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 9:04 pm Reply | Quote
  • peter connor Says:

    Take a look at VDH’s latest screed on NRO, in which he practically declares war on Iran for daring to not be Israel…..wellj paid warmongering insanity, I would wager. No mention by the redoubtable historian of the fact that Israel’s whole nuclear program, and most of its nuclear material, was stolen from the USA.

    [Reply]

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    No, it was the French in the 1950s when France had an African Empire and was Israel’s chief ally. Source is Martin Van Crevald. “The Sword and The Olive.”

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 10:29 pm Reply | Quote
  • 4candles Says:

    Setting aside the moralising and the specific Southern target, the social engineering point is sound, isn’t it?

    The South could not live in the knowledge that its heroic sacrifices were offered in a wicked cause, and its response was to excise from religion the notion of sin and virtue, and replace it with social engineering. …The Civil War made us stupid. It persuaded us that we were better off playing God than leaving the outcome to [Gnon] who might demand such terrible sacrifices of us once again. … The trauma of the Civil War drove us towards Wilsonian Universalism, which lives on in the form of George W. Bush’s “world democratic revolution.”

    Considering admin’s ADDED article, the same criticism is currently being made against Germany within the Eurozone. I have a book here (that has a terribly unhelpful index btw) which talks about Hitler’s last secret weapon: not stupidity directly but trauma.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 4th, 2015 at 11:29 pm Reply | Quote
  • vxxc2014 Says:

    It’s safe to say Goldman hates and fears White Christian Traditionalist Patriots. This is common among our chattering class and media. What he means by “The South” are all Red Staters, which is pretty much most of the United States by county returns, Blue wins by votes in urban enclaves – all quite paid for…Confederacy/The South=Whites.

    When you won’t shake someone’s hand because they’re not of your race, you’re a racist.

    I don’t hate Jews. I’m pretty sure those of Goldman’s type which is dominant in his group loathe and hate me and mine. I’m not racist, we know certain of Goldman’s class and ethnicity are genocidal racists as they proved it in the USSR especially the Ukraine. When Goldman or the Nation or the NYT or any of them refer to the Confederacy they mean Whites.

    But they’re not the problem. It’s one of many opportunistic infections because we are so damn weak. When you’re this weak you invite attack. That’s the Human Race.

    [Reply]

    Anon314 Reply:

    Im the same in that I think its a waste of time hating Jews like others do. I do however have a problem when those of us who recognize the role Jewish elites have played creating the current climate, particularly in the US, that we are attacked for not sharing their worshipful tones towards the Tribe (how dare we call it The Synagogue instead of The Cathedral, etc.). But I also respect Moldbug, especially after he outed himself. Theres no reason to be suspicious towards his contributions, considering how it affected his career. He wanted his ideas propagated, nothing more. Hes not engaging in some long-con to create a new controlled opposition or something of that sort.

    I also dont like how the techno-commercialists/futurists of NRx continually attack Christian traditionalists and secular traditionalists. Its annoying enough that we get this regularly from the mainstream establishment, but now we have to deal with this same shit from supposed allies. Same thing with ethno-nationalists. I see them as a buffer to keep out entryists from infiltrating. Its easy for white progs to come in and hate on colored people, its a whole another matter for them to accept the notion of whites explicitly advocating along racial lines. Mind you, I still think its bound to fail. But I still consider them invaluable allies in the current makeshift alliance, and find it quite sad to see status whoring from NRx members that you typically expect from progs. Who are you all trying to impress with your condemnations?

    Also dont think having a Jewish wife matters much at all. Women take on the politics of their husband, not the other way around. Just look at the age of treason blogger. Hes a white racialist with a Jewish wife, and he explicitly writes about the Jewish Question, yet she supports him completely. This shouldnt be surprising to anyone. Of course, if a man is way too beta, it could be a real cause for concern, but NRx should at minimum expect their thought leaders to not be spineless.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    The problem with this comment is that someone is going to respond to it, then there’s a conversation, then it’s goddamn Facebook. I’m done with this inane gossip. If it carries on, I’m going to just delete a whole heap of comments without warning. (So consider this the warning, if my position wasn’t already clear.)

    People can explore private genealogical minutiae over at n/a’s place, or somewhere similar. I’m sure he’d welcome the traffic.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    Anon
    Im not clear what shit christian and secular traditionalists are getting my understanding is they together form the third leg. I think of the secular as patriarchy loosely put which to me ought to fall under HBD being science based I have no argument per se but strategically i have wondered out loud many a time how specifically a reactionary patriarchy might compare to other patriarchy’s. I singled out patriarchy not for any intrinsic problem but illustrative of how our ideas are quite vague.The devil is in the details.
    Religion I admit I may be one of the few who question its place. Though I have only noticed anti christian writing from the WN which i assume you realize is quite distinct from reaction. I would also preface this by saying I get how powerful religion can be to motivate people, and I get that its been a net civilizing force in human affairs,and though a lapsed catholic im a sympathetic or cultural catholic not a atheist hater. I also get christian conservatives are a significant constituency so understand the temptation to want to include them.
    The problem I have is Christianity is a far leftist ideology, and though conservative people have adopted it and at times maintained fairly conservative cultures its always easily used against those cultures by the left who are able to quote Christianities very leftist principles. You really need to torture scripture and rely most on the old testament to make it speak conservatively. Also of course the left argues against Christianity as anti rational when it speaks conservatively. This has been how western civilization has been turned,its how the GOP is hamstrung. I have brought this up many times but have yet to hear a defense if you know the answer Id like to hear what the answer is to avoid these problem recurring.
    Btw I agree that theres an annoying walk back on the jewish question at times, I think its partially to maintain a certain tenor and partially because one really cant say for sure to what degree there is a “Synagogue” I find it most annoying when jewish reactionaries become offended at the subject as if spend 90% of the time blaming Christianity and 10% blaming Judaism is anti Semitic.Psychologically what I think I want is not so much an admission of sole responsibility but to be validated that I am not imagining things, that Jews work overwhelmingly against western civilization [while still contributing overwhelmingly] I grew up and live part time in NYC trust me Im not imagining things, In fact most of my friends are probably jewish and I could understand how they might have thought it would protect them if they divided us but its still an evil that needs in depth acknowledgement before allying for a new battle.
    The long con thought has crossed my mind, if Im a jew thinking you know we have had a good run with this marxist cultural marxist thing but the tides bound to change one day soon while im out here in the garage why dont I get ahead of the curve and get us in on the ground floor of a new right wing ideology. But that would be a conspiracy theory.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 12:02 am Reply | Quote
  • E. Antony Gray (@RiverC) Says:

    The neocons are quite well worn out now. A sad thing in its way, but as they say, “the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.”

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 2:21 am Reply | Quote
  • Peter A. Taylor Says:

    Just before going quiet, Moldbug linked to James Buchanan’s memoirs. Very interesting history leading up to the Civil War. Virginia *almost* freed their slaves in 1832. But by 1854, everything had gone to Hell and war had already broken out in Missouri and Kansas.

    https://archive.org/details/mrbuchanansadmin1866buch

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 2:37 am Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Lucian of Samosata,

    As others have explained to you, moldbug was open about being an ethnically conscious Jew well before you were aware of him.

    http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/08/moldbug-bring-back-monarchy-so-i-can.html

    It doesn’t matter if you knew this or not. You don’t need to know the ethnicity or the creator of an ideology to find it more or less congenial based to one degree or another on your ethnicity or that of your family members.

    Nick,

    “The economical ‘Hebrews are often smart and witty’ theory isn’t likely to fly with someone as far gone as n/a.”

    It would make no difference if Jewish influence could be entirely explained by “Hebrews are often smart and witty” (though the data I’m aware of suggest IQ differences alone can’t explain Jewish incomes, and there are many fields where IQ alone is extremely unlikely to explain the degree of Jewish overrepresentation). “Hebrews are often smart and witty” does not mean their interests are my interests or that they should be off limits to criticism. Why the crimestop just in the Hebrew case. Why doesn’t the same logic prevent you from critiquing supposed “Puritan” influence?

    Puritans are to be attacked (without regard to truth; most recently, in your case, by ascribing Jewish ethics to them, in a fashion you would probably regard as crude “anti-Semitism” when directed against the people who created said ethic in the world we actually live in — and you see nothing wrong with this) and Puritan influence (real or imagined) is illegitimate. Jews, on the other hand, are a story of pure meritocracy and must not be questioned. Jewish influence is by definition legitimate. Jews have no agency when it comes to their leftist politics, but any power they may or may not have is wholly deserved.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    The ‘smart and witty’ point was specifically about why people might have enjoyed reading Moldbug (pre-doxxed), as an alternative to nefarious conspiricizing.

    As for ‘crime-stop’ — it’s all in your head. The Spengler post, for e.g., could only have appeared exculpatory to someone utterly monomaniacal on the subject. Advanced-Phase Protestantism is my own clade, and I’m abnormally open to its positive as well as its negative features. It’s schismatic, autonomy-oriented, textually fundamentalist — all features I appreciate. Any nuance in either direction gets subjected to Boolean sorting at your end. Anything less than rapturous apology for Puritanism gets counted as a vicious onslaught, anything less that blank hatred for Jews as Zionic tribe-meld. Even then, if it weren’t for the immediate departure from the realm of ideas to rummaging through family records, it might be a tolerable eccentricity. As it is, it just makes any attention to the topic entirely unrewarding. Hence, most on the outer right who stop short of pulling on jack-boots tend to avoid it, as a subject that reliably pulls in obnoxious crazies. That’s quite understandable, and even wise.

    This is what well-balanced racism looks like.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 9:08 pm Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Jefferson,

    “Even if it was Jews who took over from the wasps and wrecked the world, why the hell did the wasps let them!?”

    See the excerpts from Frank Salter in my comment here. Ethnically mobilized minorities can have disproportionate influence vs. less ethnically mobilized majorities. And, all else being equal, group identity will be more salient to minority members than majority members. “WASPs” did however make many efforts (e.g. the 1924 Immigration Act) to stop the transformation of the country.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 9:33 pm Reply | Quote
  • Phil Says:

    If you’re going to bring people’s wives into it, be a man about it. Don’t bring it up anonymously like a pussy.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 5th, 2015 at 11:07 pm Reply | Quote
  • NRx_N00B Says:

    michael said: “Unfortunately it deeper Christianity is plainly a lefty religion, jesus is just as much a revolutionary as Jefferson…”

    being raised as a church going Lutheran (but being an atheist as far back as I can remember, which made for some great trolling/arguments with my parents—usually from a psychodynamic approach, arguing that religion was a coping mechanism for those that couldn’t handle reality) I always wondered why liberals acted more like many Christians; it’s always ironic hearing libs/leftys bash Christianity when their entire value systems is an outgrowth of Protestantism.

    as for rabbi-JC being a revolutionary, I always did see him as proto Che Guevara. I have to admit, I do sometimes wonder how much Judeo-Christian admixture there is in Progressivism—realistically, it must contain a healthy dose of genes from both.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 6th, 2015 at 4:21 am Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Nick,

    “The Spengler post, for e.g., could only have appeared exculpatory to someone utterly monomaniacal on the subject.”

    Unless you’re being very subtle indeed, you clearly are exculpating David Goldman’s peddling a fantasy version of American history in the name of Jewish ethnocentrism. You simply seized on Goldman’s column as evidence in favor of moldbug’s risible grand unified theory of politics and fodder to stir up “eth-nats” — not against Jews but against Yankees. As far as we’re to understand, Goldman’s ethnicity is irrelevant. He’s merely a cog in the mechanical firmament of the “Cathedral”, which Puritans are to be blamed for setting in motion. And while you’re happy to engage in the occasional base demagoguery by assigning Jewish traits to Yankees, and have no objection to those within your wider orbit who damn Puritans for their supposed Hebraizing tendencies (and perhaps will even allow that the retarded “cladistic” analysis might be extended back to early Judaism itself), none of this (much less their actual politics and behavior today) is to reflect negatively on living Jews.

    “Anything less than rapturous apology for Puritanism gets counted as a vicious onslaught, anything less that blank hatred for Jews as Zionic tribe-meld.”

    False, and extremely dishonest.

    “Even then, if it weren’t for the immediate departure from the realm of ideas to rummaging through family records, it might be a tolerable eccentricity. As it is, it just makes any attention to the topic entirely unrewarding. Hence, most on the outer right who stop short of pulling on jack-boots tend to avoid it, as a subject that reliably pulls in obnoxious crazies. That’s quite understandable, and even wise.”

    Again resorting to an extremely dishonest style of “argument”. The comment you’re replying to said nothing about your family, and I was prepared to let that subject drop. Instead of answering a direct question, you try to change the subject and engage in what you imagine is a subtle attempt at walling off areas of noticing you are uncomfortable with without coming off as overly expurgatory to the non-zombie-like members of your audience. If you want to ban me, ban me. But you, adherent of the moldbug school of history with a primary focus on immanentizing the techno-rapture, are in no position to be calling others crazy. To reasonably intelligent people, it takes more effort not to notice Jewish ethnic activism or disproportionate Jewish influence in the modern west than to notice it. Jewish donors are responsible for something like 2/3 of Democratic and 1/3 of Republican campaign funding. This is the sort of fact someone seriously interested in understanding present-day US politics might find more salient than minutiae of 17th-century theology.

    “This is what well-balanced racism looks like.”

    For readers who didn’t click the link, this is the sort of “racism” Nick is comfortable with when it comes to Jews:

    I’m cautious with this section, because I know that Jews are the only ones who are actually going to read this book. In his view, Jews dominate the media today because “They’re the only ones who care.” Granted, sometimes Jewish control of the culture gets out of hand and becomes bad for art. If you kill a guy like [Mel Gibson] over a couple of anti-Semitic remarks, you reinforce all the beliefs that the Jews control the business and will take you down if you mess with them. I mean, even if it’s true, you don’t want to make it that obvious. On the other hand: Without them the whole country would be like Branson, Missouri.

    For Nick, it’s okay to kind of notice Jewish power as long as you flatter Jews, insult white Americans, and are a comedian.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    “… and I was prepared to let that subject drop.” — You really are a piece of work.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 6th, 2015 at 5:08 am Reply | Quote
  • n/a Says:

    Nick,

    Sulking does not constitute an argument. I’m not going to apologize for briefly mentioning an undeclared conflict of interest and potential source of bias in your thinking.

    For someone who found this line of inquiry so gratuitously unpleasant upthread and yet was nobly prepared to continue trying to engage with “you people” who “find it impossible to stick with an argument”, it’s interesting you keep trying to shift the focus back there.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    If I was “sulking” I’d simply delete all your comments. They are too amusing for that, as I’m sure many others can see, even if you can’t.

    “… an undeclared conflict of interest …” — sure, and you could be Mengele’s thawed-out clone for all that anybody here knows.

    As for “the argument” — since your sole response to the Moldbug Puritan Hypothesis (held, of course, by many others, and by no means original to him) is dismissal for “obvious absurdity” it seems fair to assume things have reached a stable equilibrium. That Protestants have co-opted Jews far more successfully than Jews have co-opted Protestants seems overwhelmingly convincing to me — as you realize. The discussion will continue in the wider culture, but I’d be amazed if either of us could say anything remotely persuasive to each other at this point.

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    Nick, considering the interesting array of projects going on at the ‘other place’, I’d leave this person to it. He/she has taken up enough of your time as it is.

    The fact that your wife’s background has been brought up in the first plac signifies a new nadir for neoreationary public conversation, and perhaps an indicator that Outside In has run its course.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    If you look at the hideous stuff going on in the Unqualified Reservations comment threads, you might revise your sense of the “history of neoreactionary public conversation”. It’s more a question of whether we’ve reached “a new nadir” in the history of National Socialist public commentary, and that might be considered a slight exaggeration.

    It would be wonderful (from my PoV) if The Great Peace of Moldbuggian hegemony kept things civilized, but regrettably — as Pareto told us — 80% of everything is garbage. It’s good for the immune system to not drift too far from that reality.

    Posted on August 6th, 2015 at 6:17 am Reply | Quote
  • Mark Warburton Says:

    If Pareto serves as your sanity-saving mantra, fair enough. I just find little these Eth-Nats – no matter how well read – paranoid and psychotic.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    It’s educational for everyone to see why the dissident right — which means, ultimately, the West in general — can’t have nice things.

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 6th, 2015 at 10:02 am Reply | Quote
  • vxxc2014 Says:

    I don’t think march on the Jews has legs in America.

    Judging from recent punditry and the debate last night march on Washington and Wall street does…Codevilla’s terms have made it into the mainstream.

    Why even Reich – Bill Clinton’s Todt minister of industrial sized sellouts has cribbed from The Ruling Class and the Dangers of Revolution.

    You natsoc’s can suckle that one: Robert Todt Reich-minister of Labor betrayal by Free Trade.

    Irony is over-rated but at present it overbounds….

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 8th, 2015 at 1:05 am Reply | Quote
  • This Week in Reaction (2015/08/09) | The Reactivity Place Says:

    […] Land catches the hilariously misnamed “Spengler” being more Judeo-Puritan Than Thou over at PJ Media. If moral signaling were horses… oh […]

    Posted on August 10th, 2015 at 6:06 pm Reply | Quote

Leave a comment