‘Our’ Angry Cousins

What to make of them? Scharlach muses (on this comment thread):

I’ve never ventured into WN territory. Is there anything worthwhile there? I’ve always thought the difference between Derbyshire-esque race realism and straight-up, codified, black-bashing White Supremacy is the difference between, say, not eating at the bad sushi restaurant down the street, maybe writing a bad review on Yelp, telling people they shouldn’t eat there … and actively seeking out the restaurant owner, dragging him behind a truck, and burning the restaurant down.

April 22, 2013admin 43 Comments »
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43 Responses to this entry

  • Nick B. Steves Says:

    Well if that is the difference, then it IS a big one. Not that Cathedral Clerics would appreciate it, but they are paid not to notice lotsa things.

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 12:49 am Reply | Quote
  • admin Says:

    Outside in defends cosmopolitan capitalism, as realized most impressively in the micro-polities of the Pacific Rim (Singapore, Hong Kong, Macao …). White Nationalism is definitely not its thing.

    That said, there is quite clearly a serious intellectual content to ethno-nationalist extremism, based upon consistent application of Hamiltonian inclusive fitness to political questions. Ethnic nepotism is the expected outcome, if Darwinian principles are lucidly pursued. Genetic proximity would naturally result in altruistic preference. If this is not held to prevail, an explanation can reasonably be demanded. (Memetic autonomy — as exemplified by some variant of cultural virus theory — might be one route to an alternative understanding.)

    Whatever one thinks of Frank Salter, for instance, he’s serious, and deserving of structured controversy.

    [Reply]

    Scharlach Reply:

    Yes, that’s why I try not to dismiss them out of hand (which is, believe me, my first impulse). Here’s from Salter’s Wiki page:

    More ethnically homogeneous nations are better able to build public goods, are more democratic, less corrupt, have higher productivity and less inequality, are more trusting and care more for the disadvantaged.

    We have examples of what White Nationalist Utopias might look like, and they’re precisely the places the Left likes to point to when it comes to social and class issues: Denmark, Sweden, fucking Liechtenstein (which apparently has the highest GDP per capita in the world, and which, extrapolating from religious demographics, boasts a 95% Western European population, 85% of whom are Catholic). Of course, the Left likes to overlook those insignificant demographic factors.

    So, for all their coarse simplicity, perhaps the WN’s are on to something.

    Then again, would Space-X ever launch from Denmark or Liechtenstein? Is Sweden going to unlock the genetics of IQ? Doubtful. The question is—how do you combine the social stability and harmony of an ethno-nationalist state with the scientific and economic innovation of a capitalist cosmopolis? Perhaps an impossibility . . .

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    “… how do you combine the social stability and harmony of an ethno-nationalist state with the scientific and economic innovation of a capitalist cosmopolis? Perhaps an impossibility . . .” … in one place. Within a competitive, dynamic Patchwork, on the other hand, such tensions could work themselves out multiplicitously and experimentally.

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    “Outside in defends cosmopolitan capitalism, as realized most impressively in the micro-polities of the Pacific Rim (Singapore, Hong Kong, Macao …). White Nationalism is definitely not its thing.”

    Glad you’ve clarified this!

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    I can’t imagine that it’s been a huge secret.

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    Well, I thought it might the case; but I can never tell for sure with you! 😛

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 1:12 am Reply | Quote
  • Thales Says:

    “We’re the same, you and me!”

    “We are not the same.”

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    Love that film. Digressing as per usual, has anyone seen ‘Eden Lake’ here? At the time of its released it was rubbished by The Catherdral as reactionary hysteria, now my once pleasant Croxley Green is resembling the enclave portrayed in the film. The White Van culture is dominating the suburbs I live in and around. Inner city troubles are racial, certainly – but on the fringes it’s a class thing.

    [Reply]

    Nick B. Steves Reply:

    That’s one of the problems with white nationalism… white is not enough of an indicator.

    [Reply]

    Thales Reply:

    Dewd, just reading the blurb on that flick makes me want to spend a day at the range…

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    If the blurb did that, I’d dread to think what the film itself would do!

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 1:47 am Reply | Quote
  • spandrell Says:

    The problem with ethno/nationalism is that ethnicity is a fungible concept. All those proud Frenchmen who died for La Patrie in 1914 couldn’t talk to each other just 100 years earlier.
    And conversely, the proud Spaniards to fought for God and King against the evil liberal Frenchman, today can’t stand each other and have come up with standardized grammars for any mountain dialect they can coalesce upon.

    My favorite pasttime is scaring Nick Land about Chinese regions undergoing ethnogenesis and going provincial-socialist, breaking capitalist mobility.

    Of course the argument on White nationalism is that Europeans as a wide race would build superior polities if other races went away. I think there’s a lot evidence for that. But ethnogenesis requires a credible outside threat to kickstart asabiyyah. And whites qua whites will never have a credible enemy.

    [Reply]

    nydwracu Reply:

    The problem with white nationalism is that most white nationalists are American and most of America’s problems are due to the fact that different white ethnicities have been fighting over it for centuries.

    Then again, a lot of white nationalists, in my experience, are also neo-confederates, so they must know that on some level.

    [Reply]

    wobbly Reply:

    M. Spandrell, those proud Frenchman who died in la geurre couldn’t speak to each other at the time. There are families that still speak, say, Gascon at home today but they are getting rare. I’d guess this situation is similar in other parts of France.

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 5:56 am Reply | Quote
  • admin Says:

    “Europeans … would build superior polities if other races went away.” — Scandinavian-style social democracies most probably. Forgive techno-commercialists for getting less than hysterically excited about the idea.

    [Reply]

    spandrell Reply:

    Well techno-commercialism was started by a very homogeneous England, and the argument has been made about science in the US having lost momentum since the 1965 foreign onslaught.

    I don’t see how Brazilization helps techno-commerce. A homogeneous white polity against a homogeneous Chinese polity engaged in a bitter arms-race is probably the best way to accelerate technological progress. That would require the Chinese to stop stealing all the money the can go to live in Vancouver though.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    I don’t see any sign of ‘Brazilization’ on the (western) Pacific Rim, do you?
    The competition model is appealing, though, as long as it also includes some sensible (= Han heavy) multicultural models. Just racing alternative ethno-states against each other might produce beneficial mutual incitement, but it wouldn’t yield much in the way of transferable lessons.

    [Reply]

    spandrell Reply:

    Well there seems to be something going on in South Korea , and powerful forces are trying to do the same in Japan.

    I’d say that part of the Brazilization is not only importing foreign helots, but the abolition of the middle classes in general. The future seems to be 60 hours work weeks doing some bullshit marketing job for 500 dollars a month. While Bill Gates reminds us how Mexicans are “much better off” thanks to Carlos Slim managerial skills.

    I guess part of the critique against techno-commercialist laissez faire-ism is that the ongoing concentration of wealth in the hands of a globalized elite seems like recreating 18th century society, which wasn’t known for its great technical progress, relatively speaking. The bigger the gap between classes, the greater the anxiety against downward mobility, which means the elites stop giving a crap against nothing but keeping their status whatever means possible.

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 6:23 am Reply | Quote
  • Federico Says:

    Whatever one thinks of Frank Salter, for instance, he’s serious, and deserving of structured controversy.

    How’s this for structured controversy?

    Ethno-nationalists are odious because of “nationalism”, more so than “ethno”. They underestimate how compatible is liberal disposal of several property—in contrast to our administrated equality—with racial discrimination.

    On the other hand I don’t think markets are the right paradigm for political externalities, or access to necessary shared space. When I try to imagine legal mechanisms that reconcile mass immigration with political stability and social distance, the solution either resembles secession, or is unlikely ever to be palatable to 21st century Westerners.

    Hence, I think the best immigration policy for large, militarily powerful countries—perhaps not niche city-states—is to head-hunt entrepreneurs and other highly desirable immigrants, but debar average folk. Where this conflicts with very natural human movement—e.g. of Mexican farm labourers—and therefore seems draconian, a Canadian-style temporary visa scheme seems appropriate.

    This seems an obvious way way to reconcile the “social stability and harmony of an ethno-nationalist state with the scientific and economic innovation of a capitalist cosmopolis”.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    I’ll need to re-read that magnificent post to follow every twist and turn, but your conclusions (both there and here) are shatteringly sane. (My apologies for not recalling that you had done that — your archive is somewhat intimidating.)

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 11:57 am Reply | Quote
  • Mark Warburton Says:

    @admin

    Actually, in all honesty, Nick, what has thrown me off is the de-programming of The Cathedral. I’m still getting use to the idea that not all race realists are race seperatists.

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 5:09 pm Reply | Quote
  • Anonymous Says:

    [Admin: “Drooling tard” troll drive-by deleted. I’m doubling tapping idiot remarks without hesitation, so there is no point leaving them.]

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    What a strange response. I just conceded that I was untangling said memes.

    [Reply]

    fotrkd Reply:

    Really? I write plenty of stupid things… I think anonymous’ comments were directed against the initial Scharlach quote – the implication of which is that race realists are benovelent freethinkers who have come to their views via reasoned, objective evaluation whereas WNs are racist, unreflective thugs (the latter being a Cathedral endorsed view). Anyway, maybe life is too short…

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    To be honest, I hardly read the thread and I’ve been in the gym for too long to be sharp of mind. Thanks for clarifying, I find the way the messages stack up a challenge in itself.

    As I sort of rambled, at least the race realist doesn’t call for some radical political programme that irritated the shit out of me.

    [Reply]

    Scharlach Reply:

    I think anonymous’ comments were directed against the initial Scharlach quote

    I really didn’t mean to imply that WN’s are drooling racists (though I’m sure some are) or that HBD’ers have completely rational motives. I’m from Los Angeles. I know about multicultural destruction first hand. My father can’t even show me the house he grew up in because it’s in South Central gang territory. My parents’ current house sometimes has rejected day laborers lounging in front of it, who leave cigarettes all over the lawn. I sometimes wonder how I managed to stay a leftist through college . . .

    Anyway, I think I’ve settled on the following metric for separating the WN wheat from the chaff.

    If an individual wants to shut down Silicone Valley because it’s full of Hindoos and gooks, or if he would’ve kept Einstein out of America because “fucking Jews!”, then, no, I’m sorry, this individual is more trouble than he’s worth. As long as it’s more rational than that, I’m willing to listen.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    Anybody without the sense of humor to enjoy your comic analogy — whatever they believe — needs to take their irascibility somewhere else.

    Nick B. Steves Reply:

    Silicone valley? Isn’t that where all the girls have unnaturally large breasts?!

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 8:54 pm Reply | Quote
  • Field Says:

    I would say most “race realists” are at the least implicitly white nationalist to some degree.

    But why would this be surprising or controversial? There’s enough reason to believe that white liberals are implicitly WN to varying degrees.

    [Reply]

    fotrkd Reply:

    I would say most “race realists” are at the least implicitly white nationalist to some degree.

    Why white?

    Mark – “What a strange response.” – I don’t think the comment was directed at you.

    [Reply]

    nydwracu Reply:

    Liberals are WN if you’re using the black definition of ‘white’. Whigprots of the world unite!

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    I’m not going to speak for others. It’s clear to me I’m probably the only ‘weak’ race realist here. I see no reason why racial difference should ever spear head a political programme. Too much of it is tied up in Nietszchean ressentiment and the total disregard that social/communual decay can (and usually is) be colour blind. The reason why no one speaks to each other down the road I live has sweet FA to do with the changing racial make up of the area. We’re like 98% white where I live.

    Ironically, I’m probably the only person who posts in this blog that has been subjected to a serious physical attack from a gang of non-whites.

    Anyways, rant over. I just find this race business dull-as-dish-water.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    “I just find this race business dull-as-dish-water.” — As long as the Cathedral insists that race issues are central to the definition of thought crime, I don’t see how boredom can be a sincere response. The deep structure of Western social authority is driven into a perpetual frenzy by the idea that anyone is thinking about race incorrectly — which matters particularly because thinking about it correctly is a logical impossibility — so how have we earned the luxury of yawns?

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    It’s an irritant that the Catherdral can’t differentiate between Blood ‘n Honour posturing, and frank discussions regarding racial differences, certainly. But it’s the former that is old hat to me more than the latter. I suppose David Starkey’s point during the London riots that non-blacks had taken on the nihilistic, rap culture ethos of inner-london, was readily broadcasted because its implications lay more on the social blank slatist model than balls-out, genetic conclusions.

    admin Reply:

    @ Field
    “… white liberals are implicitly WN to varying degrees.” — Racial segregationists, certainly, but White Nationalists?

    [Reply]

    Field Reply:

    White Nationalism at base involves some sort of explicit or implicit support of segregation.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    … but WN goes further, and seeks a new Racial Order incarnated at the State level (hence ‘nationalism’). That seems to exceed by a considerable margin anything that could be reasonably described as ‘liberalism’ (even hypocritical liberalism).

    Field Reply:

    I did say implicitly. Segregation by definition incarnates a certain “racial order” at the State level.

    It does appear that many white liberals reveal a preference for segregation and for political control in the hands of white liberals.

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 9:52 pm Reply | Quote
  • Mark Warburton Says:

    The ‘lol’ (and some) gave it away..

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 23rd, 2013 at 10:15 pm Reply | Quote
  • Roger Says:

    Wouldn’t the chief difference between ethno-nationalists and HBD “race realists” be that the former view a particular heritage group as an end in itself while the latter purport to merely take the conclusions of race science and apply them as a means to certain political goals? In reality I imagine a lot of HBD race realism is about justifying or supporting pre-existing emotional inclinations or feelings towards ethno-nationalism.

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 25th, 2013 at 3:53 pm Reply | Quote
  • Severen Says:

    “but WN goes further, and seeks a new Racial Order incarnated at the State level (hence ‘nationalism’). ”

    I don’t think WN is necessarily statist (though, that depends on our definitions of “state”). I know of antistatist WNs (or close enough to WNs), and libertarianism itself is de facto WN (considering the supporters of libertarianism, I imagine a country full of libertarians would be mostly white).

    Anyone here read Rothbard’s review of The Bell Curve? http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch75.html

    Cathedralites think the only reason anyone would ever speak of racial hereditarianism is to justify some sort of oppression, but racial hereditarianism could just as easily be used as a defense against race hatred (“that group isn’t wildy successful because of any sort of oppression/exploitation”) and a defense of free market economics (Rothbard mentions this in his review). I mention this due to some of Mr. Warburton’s comments.

    Something else to keep in mind: racial hereditarianism is a descriptiion, whereas WN is a prescription. Racial hereditarianism describes what is, whereas WN prescribes what ought to be.

    “The deep structure of Western social authority is driven into a perpetual frenzy by the idea that anyone is thinking about race incorrectly — which matters particularly because thinking about it correctly is a logical impossibility — so how have we earned the luxury of yawns?”

    Yes, even people who are otherwise smart can’t think when it comes to race. I suspect they have a meme implanted in their mind (rabid adherents of the Cathedral declare everyone a sponge and absorbent of “white supremacy”, “patriarchy”, and whatever this week’s system of oppression may be, yet I think it is they who are like a fish in water). I like to call these sort of Cathedral-implanted memes “mullmuzzlers” (“mull” = to think, so a mullmuzzler is a meme which restricts and stifles thought…I read about a band once with the name Mullmuzzler and thought that it made for a good name for this sort of meme). Mullmuzzlers are roadblocks of the mind. They prevent their hosts from advancing further from what might logically follow. You could also think of them as mental stop signs or “leaving city limits” signs (such as a city limits sign that says “LEAVING RESPECTABLE TERRITORY NOW” or “ENTERING RACIST TERRITORY NOW”) . Someone under the influence of a mullmuzzler would refuse to even entertain the heresy of racial hereditarianism because “THAT’S RACIST!”, and of course, “racists” are bad (and probably inbred, ugly, and a member of the right wing extremist Republican party, and you obviously don’t want to be any of [i]that[/i]..that’s not cool).

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 25th, 2013 at 6:20 pm Reply | Quote
  • Severen Says:

    In reality I imagine a lot of HBD race realism is about justifying or supporting pre-existing emotional inclinations or feelings towards ethno-nationalism.[Reply]

    I think that could be said for a lot of things. “Antiracism”, for instance, is basically ethnomasochist whites shilling for nonwhite nationalism (and of course, the nonwhite “antiracists” are just nationalists), and nonwhites utilize the “antiracism” as a way to advance their racial nationalism (when I say “nationalism” in this sense, I’m referring to them looking out for thier own group’s best interests).

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 25th, 2013 at 6:28 pm Reply | Quote

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