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	<title>Comments on: Poe&#8217;s Law</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; AAA &#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-83039</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; AAA &#8230;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-83039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Lightning Round &#8211; 2013/07/23 &#124; Free Northerner on Poe&#8217;s Law [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Lightning Round &#8211; 2013/07/23 | Free Northerner on Poe&#8217;s Law [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Lightning Round &#8211; 2013/07/23 &#124; Free Northerner</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-83035</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lightning Round &#8211; 2013/07/23 &#124; Free Northerner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-83035</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] and accelerate. Related:  Accelerate the ratchet. Related:  Agree and amplify science. Related: Poe’s law and Salon. Related: Using  electronic [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and accelerate. Related:  Accelerate the ratchet. Related:  Agree and amplify science. Related: Poe’s law and Salon. Related: Using  electronic [&#8230;]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-82060</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-82060</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That level of ape conflict is perfectly mimetic -- so what&#039;s the problem?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That level of ape conflict is perfectly mimetic &#8212; so what&#8217;s the problem?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Big Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81839</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Big Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;@Big Bill&lt;/strong&gt;

Sorry,. It ate my (sarc)(/sarc) markups.  But you get the drift.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@Big Bill</strong></p>
<p>Sorry,. It ate my (sarc)(/sarc) markups.  But you get the drift.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Big Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81837</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Big Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marc Antony (with markups):

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault;
And grievously hath Caesar answer&#039;d it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest, —
For Brutus is an honorable man;
So are they all, all honorable men, —
Come I to speak in Caesar&#039;s funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honorable man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Antony (with markups):</p>
<p>Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;<br />
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.<br />
The evil that men do lives after them;<br />
The good is oft interred with their bones;<br />
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus<br />
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:<br />
If it were so, it was a grievous fault;<br />
And grievously hath Caesar answer&#8217;d it.<br />
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest, —<br />
For Brutus is an honorable man;<br />
So are they all, all honorable men, —<br />
Come I to speak in Caesar&#8217;s funeral.<br />
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:<br />
But Brutus says he was ambitious;<br />
And Brutus is an honorable man.</p>
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		<title>By: Xoth</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Xoth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Had the Sokal affair happened on Twitter, Sokal&#039;s account would have been the one suspended.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Had the Sokal affair happened on Twitter, Sokal&#8217;s account would have been the one suspended.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Antisthenes</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antisthenes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I actually thought it was until I saw this and looked up the actual origin of the term.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually thought it was until I saw this and looked up the actual origin of the term.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Antisthenes</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81629</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antisthenes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 12:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Nanoaggressions: Science reveals structural oppression too small for human eyes&quot;

Lawdy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Nanoaggressions: Science reveals structural oppression too small for human eyes&#8221;</p>
<p>Lawdy.</p>
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		<title>By: E. Antony Gray (@RiverC)</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[E. Antony Gray (@RiverC)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 03:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To continue (thinking by writing) the hope here is that you will push the extremist to the point that they pass on a signal that marks them as an enemy.  So while the moderate sees feminists being pro-abortion as okay, he won&#039;t see feminists wanting to abort all male children in the womb as okay. Thus what I&#039;ll call &#039;Gray&#039;s Addendum to Poe&#039;s Law&#039; is as follows: 

Poe&#039;s law results in blowback when persons who pass on the parodic position cannot discern its falsehood, but those in the majority / in power can. 

The second addendum is as follows:

Poe&#039;s law results in schism when the position is so extreme as to mark them as an enemy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To continue (thinking by writing) the hope here is that you will push the extremist to the point that they pass on a signal that marks them as an enemy.  So while the moderate sees feminists being pro-abortion as okay, he won&#8217;t see feminists wanting to abort all male children in the womb as okay. Thus what I&#8217;ll call &#8216;Gray&#8217;s Addendum to Poe&#8217;s Law&#8217; is as follows: </p>
<p>Poe&#8217;s law results in blowback when persons who pass on the parodic position cannot discern its falsehood, but those in the majority / in power can. </p>
<p>The second addendum is as follows:</p>
<p>Poe&#8217;s law results in schism when the position is so extreme as to mark them as an enemy.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: E. Antony Gray (@RiverC)</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/poes-law/#comment-81333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[E. Antony Gray (@RiverC)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2014 03:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3093#comment-81333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dunno, having known many extremists and fundamentalists, I would have to disagree that their position is unreasonable. It may be that a lot of people parrot the position without considering it, and the axioms assumed result in casual absurdities, Such people are unreasonable. And it is also true that unreasonable positions exist, but this is not the test for it.

If you can discover their axioms and reason from them, you will get their positions (Slate Star Codex is remarkably good at this.) Sometimes you can&#039;t; that&#039;s true unreason. Since it is much easier to rationalize axioms than to correct them, people will often cling to poorly performing axioms. It is also the case that reality is sometimes more subtle than you think, and abandoning an axiom when things get difficult is no particular virtue.

Poe&#039;s law relies on not that the positions are unreasonable, but that people are using the positions as signals - Poe&#039;s law works by hacking the signal. This is similar to people wearing a uniform similar to another&#039;s - the casual observer may be fooled by the similarity, but the very dedicated recon will discern the difference. The reason why Poe&#039;s law is effective is that people are glossing positions for emotional reasons, and signaling support for them. When the attack signal is spotted, they only identify its rudimentary form, i.e. &#039;does it signal support for X?&#039; and pass it along or believe it based on that. 

I personally do not think that Poe&#039;s law is limited at all to extremism, it is simply that the author of the law had trouble discerning real from fake signals in positions very different from his own. But Poe&#039;s law is only effective with extremism because it attacks by overloading the signal. It is hard to overload the signal of moderation, since the effectiveness of the attack is that it gets people to &#039;admit&#039; to positions that are, in reality, horrible, because they cannot discern the fake signal.  The person to whom the position is extreme is not really the target, but the target is primarily the person to whom the position is NOT extreme. 

I do not trust anyone who admits to using such techniques in a non-jocular fashion, for obvious reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno, having known many extremists and fundamentalists, I would have to disagree that their position is unreasonable. It may be that a lot of people parrot the position without considering it, and the axioms assumed result in casual absurdities, Such people are unreasonable. And it is also true that unreasonable positions exist, but this is not the test for it.</p>
<p>If you can discover their axioms and reason from them, you will get their positions (Slate Star Codex is remarkably good at this.) Sometimes you can&#8217;t; that&#8217;s true unreason. Since it is much easier to rationalize axioms than to correct them, people will often cling to poorly performing axioms. It is also the case that reality is sometimes more subtle than you think, and abandoning an axiom when things get difficult is no particular virtue.</p>
<p>Poe&#8217;s law relies on not that the positions are unreasonable, but that people are using the positions as signals &#8211; Poe&#8217;s law works by hacking the signal. This is similar to people wearing a uniform similar to another&#8217;s &#8211; the casual observer may be fooled by the similarity, but the very dedicated recon will discern the difference. The reason why Poe&#8217;s law is effective is that people are glossing positions for emotional reasons, and signaling support for them. When the attack signal is spotted, they only identify its rudimentary form, i.e. &#8216;does it signal support for X?&#8217; and pass it along or believe it based on that. </p>
<p>I personally do not think that Poe&#8217;s law is limited at all to extremism, it is simply that the author of the law had trouble discerning real from fake signals in positions very different from his own. But Poe&#8217;s law is only effective with extremism because it attacks by overloading the signal. It is hard to overload the signal of moderation, since the effectiveness of the attack is that it gets people to &#8216;admit&#8217; to positions that are, in reality, horrible, because they cannot discern the fake signal.  The person to whom the position is extreme is not really the target, but the target is primarily the person to whom the position is NOT extreme. </p>
<p>I do not trust anyone who admits to using such techniques in a non-jocular fashion, for obvious reasons.</p>
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