Quote note (#182)

A dynamic cultural analysis of the immigration mess from Ed West:

The downside to guilt culture is that social justice politics, having evolved from Christianity, often sounds sanctimonious – a deeply unattractive trait. In particular, Christianity’s universalism, referencing St Paul’s idea that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, can often lead to pathological altruism. This is problematic, especially when it involves integrating people from a shame culture into a guilt culture, and in particular the second generation when the restraints of the former are lifted. The Syrian war is like a positive feedback loop of migration and misery, with alienated second-generation Muslim immigrants leaving Europe to fight jihad in the Middle East, which in turn ruins the lives of middle eastern Muslims, who are forced to settle in Europe. […] It is because of Europe’s previous immigration problems that many people are reluctant about accepting more people from the Middle East. In recent days, however, their reservations have been overruled by our culture of guilt and the silent triumph of Christianity.

September 5, 2015admin 48 Comments »
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48 Responses to this entry

  • Quote note (#182) | Neoreactive Says:

    […] By admin […]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 12:20 am Reply | Quote
  • Lucian of Samosata Says:

    Something something grandmother of Bolshevism something something.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 12:43 am Reply | Quote
  • peter connor Says:

    Population Replacement….

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 2:16 am Reply | Quote
  • Mark Warburton Says:

    I’m convinced Ed West is trawling through NRX blogs. First I thought it was just a coincedence, but… Asabiyyah, virtue signalling, now blatantly finding Benedict’s research via Peter Frost via whoever else. It’s a good thing. He’s exposing the centre-right to the most interesting stuff on the outer-right.

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    This paragraph is too good to pass up:

    “There are at least two theories as to what drove the creation of a guilt culture. One is that European societies tended to involve far more interaction with people to whom we are not related, and internalising one’s conscience was the only way of adapting from more clannish societies. The other, and more likely cause, is Christianity, which transformed shame-based societies, like that of Anglo-Saxon England, into guilt-based ones.”

    If guilt-based society was not a product of European cosmopolitanism, then the mechanism that spread Christianity must have been reliant on other factors. I haven’t researched shame-guilt cultures in much detail so I’d be interested to know what HBDer’s have suggested as the cause (or ‘underlying physics’). Egregoric super-stimulants can only get through the window if you invite them in.

    [Reply]

    Exfernal Reply:

    My opinion is that in the metaphysical framework of Christianity there is not much difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is shame felt due to Divine scrutiny, either directly, or through a personal guardian angel. To paraphrase a certain saying about Big Brother: ‘God is always watching you’.

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    I too, find it hard to distinguish guilt and shame very well. In its basics, all of bad conscience is an internalized punishment system that attempts, through severity of enactment, to reform the ‘spiritual’ behaviors of an organism that have been discovered, in some way or another, to be out of favor with Gnon. Further, if evolvability (meta)-functions have been refined through many terrestrial-scale die-offs and subsequent recolonizations then Conscience, understood as an intuitive measurement of an organisms ‘conformity with Gnon’, might possibly attain a divinological sensitivity, but it could never be assured. In that sense, a bad (sad) conscience can suggest a good working conscience, but it can also just be a conscience gone bad. Conscience alone may not be sufficient to guide behavior toward adaptive (‘conscience-lifting’) ends – there needs to be a functioning mind to interpret its signal – but until we create anti-fragile app-consciences with which to outsource the inner workings of our souls, it’s the best we have.

    One thing is for sure, the neurosciences are in the (advanced) process of travestying phenomenal testimonies as to the ‘honesty’ of conscience.

    Kgaard Reply:

    Ed West IS Neoreaction. His book The Diversity Illusion is must-reading. It is an absolute powerhouse. And written like 2-3 years ago when that sort of thing was not done in book form. This guy has stones.

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    NRx_N00B Reply:

    I’ll have to remember this, the perfect redpill Christmas stocking stuffer—just what the doctor ordered.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 3:00 am Reply | Quote
  • spandrell Says:

    @Mark Warburton

    https://twitter.com/edwest/status/557839100754276353

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    Ha! So twitter does have its uses then.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 3:31 am Reply | Quote
  • NRx_N00B Says:

    Admin links yet another sweet little piece. For me it really hammers home the epiphanic brilliance of Moldbug’s “How Dawkins Got Pwnd”. It’s too bad so many of the ethnat types endlessly bark up the wrong tree.

    I’ve been having a lot of luck lately in redpilling a few hardcore libs/progs—I like it.

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    I haven’t revisited HDGP for a while, but I remember the sense of epiphanic discovery I experienced when reading it. It could be worthwhile trying to hash out some of the key points (from memory):

    – A memeplex is any collection of memes that constitute a full mimetic body so that the religious needs of its adherents or hosts are attended to solely by that memeplex.

    – A memeplex interested primarily in propagating itself may have misaligned incentives to its host population, which often results from conflicting time preference. Moldbug’s example is the suicide bomber who (thinks he) serves to further propagate and defend the Islamic religion. Also, the bomber is not so stupid as to throw away his life to a memeplex for nothing, so the memeplex mercifully promises him eternal reward in paradise to soothe his doubts. (I recall Nietzsche’s old maxim that an idea contrary to nature must first seduce the senses into accepting its poison.)

    – Formalism is Moldbug’s name for a memeplex that is in strict conformity with the interests of its carriers. Using this as an ideal framework, he thereby attempts to purge all malignant mimetic parasites from the mimetic body. To do that, Moldbug first gives a rundown of what he claims would be the opposite of formalism, which is of course…

    – Progressivism is the ultimately malignant egregore that does not, in its culminating expression, abide its hosts having independent interests, or genes, or minds of their own, or sex, or race, or possessions, or even children. Not only that, it does not recognize any god but itself, and regards outsiders as hostiles to be either tortured into submission or to be used as tools of terrifying oppression against its own enslaved population.

    There’s more to it then that, but no matter what the flaws of formalism may be, it’s certainly a far more benign memeplex than progressivism, and perhaps even the basis for a healthy mimetic immune system, so you’re doing those ‘hardcore libs/progs’ a service by ‘redpilling’ them.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    I thought formalism sounded more like commitment to logic and absence of brainwashing, rather than just another flavour of brainwash.

    The only probably with formalism is MM’s disavowal of violence right off the bat, which goes a long way to explaining why he’s a skinnyfat DYEL.

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    Well yes, but if you were to ask Richard Dawkins what New Athiesm stands for, do you think he might say ‘commitment to logic’ (scientific enlightenment) and ‘absence of brainwashing’ (self-determination). But then, when you take into account that Dawkins is a rabid Islamophobe who votes for the pro-immigrant left and justifies this in terms of a ‘moral zeitgeist’ things start to get a little darker. Does not formalism (re. commitment to logic) in matters of religion in fact begin with the very opposite of ‘absence of brainswashing’, and instead presume universal indoctrination? That is what Moldbug does in any case. If a man tells you he is doing an operation on a virulent meme-virus infecting everyone, and replacing it with royalism, and you think ‘this is surely an absence of brainwashing’, then perhaps it would be wise to act accordingly.

    chris b Reply:

    “The only probably with formalism is MM’s disavowal of violence right off the bat, which goes a long way to explaining why he’s a skinnyfat DYEL.”

    No he doesn’t.

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    @ chris b,

    It’s right there in the very first UR post.

    @ Psy-Ops

    Royalism in Moldbug isn’t axiomatic, it’s a means to provide order and legitimacy, as opposed to chaos and formalized mob violence (democracy).

    I’m claiming that even though both Dawkins and Moldbug might claim to be adherents to logic and free of brainwashing, Moldbug’s claim is actually somewhat valid. Just because Dawkins is self-deceptive doesn’t mean all self-righteous rationalists are.

    admin Reply:

    I agree this is MM’s most delicate spot. It could have been drawn from Hobbes, but it certainly appears as a peculiar specter of the NAP, still serving a grounding function as an unquestioned axiom. (Intelligence Optimization is self-validating, but conflict aversion is more of a preliminary squeamishness.)

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    @Lucian

    For Moldbug, royalism is a non-euphemistic expression for the formal axiomatic of power summed up in the phrase “Might Equals Right”. (So I’m forced to disagree.)

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    “Just because Dawkins is self-deceptive doesn’t mean all self-righteous rationalists are.”

    There’s reason to believe rational self-deception has been selected for hard: http://www.xenosystems.net/war-in-heaven-ii/#comment-226544

    Chris B Reply:

    @Lucian of Samosata Before we go further, are we referring to violence as defined by Moldbug in the post? (which is questionable definition) or are we referring to violence in the general understanding of the term?

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    @Chris B,

    The one is a hyponym of the other so take your pick.

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    @Dark Psy Ops

    ‘Might Equals Right’ can’t be axiomatic for MM. If it was he’d be praising the Vampire of the World, not skewering it.

    I have no idea why, but the only chapter of UR that relies on this Melian Dialogue rhetoric is where he addresses the Israel/Palestine question. Still trying to figure that one out to be honest.

    Chris B Reply:

    Moldbug in no way disavowels violence in general as I read it. The post is a clear attempt to encourage the reduction and elimination of political violence and day to day criminality which is facilitated by unclear governance. I think it’s pretty clear the guy would be supportive of nuking Harvard if needed. The whole passivism = pacifism nonsense is growing old.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    It’s not coming from a (stupid) “passivism = pacifism” equation. It’s coming from the foundational defense of formnalism as an avoidance of conflict (over vague property boundaries).

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    That’s exactly my point. Doesn’t it strike you as kind of obvious that skinnyfat DYELs would like to just drop nukes on things instead of engaging in the kind of violence MM disavows? If he remains closer to the Harry Trumans than the Yugioh Mishimas then the ironpill still eludes MM.

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    You’ve lost me. Are you perhaps critical of the fact Moldbug does not fully recognize the formidable prowess of evolved feces-chucking?

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    “Until NRx learns to ridicule technological advances in warfare as ‘sissy’ and boldly return to a homoerotic aesthetic of the warrior physique they will remain sexually unattractive to militant fascists” – Lucian Of Samosata

    admin Reply:

    (As a generalizable piece of anti-HRx snark, that is terrific.)

    B Reply:

    Huh. So, who won that overall conflict, Mishima and his catamites or Truman and his gang?

    Sure, we should all lift more, it’s manly & the thing to do.
    Learning from a loser with his guts on the floor like a slow trout is still just retarded.

    Chris B Reply:

    @lucian “If he remains closer to the Harry Trumans than the Yugioh Mishimas then the ironpill still eludes MM.” That’s just silly.

    @admin given the Carlyle connection, you really should rethink the “hero” sluring.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    Politics is silly.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 4:21 am Reply | Quote
  • ashv Says:

    “often” lead to pathological altruism? How often did this happen before the triumph of Massachusetts? (Not a whole lot of universalism in the first dozen centuries of Christendom, really.)

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    St. Paul is far more universalist than anything that came before him.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    Theres a lot of ruin in a world,Gibbon argues Christianity contributed to the fall of Rome.The supremacy of gods law over kings and emperors law has been the thin edge of the democratic wedge throughout history. Its taught as the proto balance of power.Christian adopted and amplified tithing sell everything you own give it to the church/poor let the dead bury the dead and follow me. Acts is full of these stories, by medieval stage they have their own tax systems.
    Look pointing to early stages of christianity and saying look they were more conservative is no different than looking back secularly and lessening liberalism as you go farther back. People still a a bad storm away from starvation have an upper limit of selflessness that they can be convinced of on any scale. And any organization trying to increase power and influence like a universal church may at times attach it self to the most powerful rulers may triangulate rulers may choose the emperor over the king for an ally. these are alliances not an indication of theology. Think of some of the progressives allies. Christianities influence of brotherhood may very well have evolved us towards high trust societies capable of more complex larger and more productive organization, it may through things like prohibition against cousin marriage done that, or through the concept of christendom. That doesnt mean it continues to serve us well or even was a net gain.

    Look christianity is plain and simple a theology that eschews physical reality in favor of a heavenly afterlife this afterlife is either eternal torture or eternal bliss dependent on how completely you lived this life for god your father god your brother and god your spirit, the measure for your devotion to living for god is living for gods proxy [others] here on earth. This living for others is fellowship in christ and gods church, nothing here in reality has any meaning except for how you treat others.Everything else you point to is humans who either believe this doing their best to spread this or skeptics seeing an opportunity to ride along.
    If you have ever been raised in a catholic school system you would know this you would have been given from the earliest ages stories about extreme selflessness. Now you can debate whether progressives pwnd christianity or vice versa it matters little they are identical
    So while I may have fond memories of latin mass incense goithic cathedrals millenia old rites a sense of historical gavitas while tomes can be written on the influence of christianity on western civilization. The reality is its not for neo reactionaries. it can not be a third leg it cancerous. why because NRX is founded on HBD everything comes down to HBD and HBD is important because it real. we are rationalist who realize we evolved in certain ways that cant be ignored and that all men are not created equal and societies of unequal abilities have serious challenges probably fatal. Christianity is irrational and beleives in the brotherhood of man and in living your lives for other. The Christian DENRX solution is europeans offer themselves in perpetual slavery to less capable people as an offering for our inadequate godliness while the chinese exploit the vacume at which point we can simply pray for a miricle.
    I get its tempting because many christians are conservative even reactionaries and so seem allies and possible converts to our tiny ranks. But look how conservatism inc has done with that strategy. Its bound to lead to some entryist reasserting the actual meaning of christianity and its primacy over other considerations.
    Better to think about the reason some christians seem conservative whats really going on there,its not that complicated they are confused sentimental kidding themselves caught up in a cultural inheritance.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    FRom those who can see
    “Pre-immivasion, corruption was so low in Sweden they didn’t even have vocabulary for it. From Simona Pattioni, via HBD Chick:
    The Swedish language does not have an appropriate word for clientelism, and when journalists refer to clientelism in other countries, they usually have to add that this is a practice where politicians exchange favors for political support. Yet, on the whole, the practice of clientelism is relatively unknown in Sweden. Evidence from scientific research suggests that the Swedish bureaucracy works in a relatively universalistic manner.”

    Ive thought the difference between an insurance policy managed by the state and welfare is a tight IQ curve, how strong a peoples work ethic is and the cultural confidence to enforce it, and its even distribution throughout the population. vs a widely varied ability and work ethic.
    I think this applies to democracy as well.
    Places like Switzerland and apparently pre invasion Sweden perhaps can handle democracy and perhaps even some socialism in isolation, its when exposed to others their lack of immunity becomes fatal.
    I realize it heresy but Im simply pointing out there are bugs. capitalism doesnt always function as we would like to pretend and democracy has at times served us well.
    Science seems to learn the most looking at the margins and exceptions. Certainly demography will kill us before socialism. One can recover from a socialist collapse not a population collapse.
    The reason I bring up the possibility of fixing up the old system is, the cathedral conceding a collapse and reaction assuming control is pretty far fetched. and has all sorts of problems like self defense currency etc. but mostly the roadblock is HBD
    Im not convinced average people are evolved for it yet, Whats more realistic is thinking about how to work back towards reaction from here.

    what we have now is a pretty good indicator of what people want/need. anyone who thinks they can transform christianity and monarchy ought to patch up the old system more easily until we can gene edit our primordial instincts.
    We want a system less susceptible to capture and more capable of administering consequences.The proles want this too its elites using immigrants to keep power thats distorting things.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 5:53 am Reply | Quote
  • Henk Says:

    The other, and more likely cause, is Christianity…

    …because is well known that the human mind is this Blank Slate thingie.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    Do you believe people are born as self-hating pathological guilt-ridden bluepilled cuckolds?

    [Reply]

    Dark Psy-Ops Reply:

    There’s a chance for a pun on the birth of Christ here if anyone is insensitive enough to take it.

    [Reply]

    NRx_N00B Reply:

    Wait, what?! Was Joseph cuckolded?!

    michael Reply:

    No ,But do you thinks its possible we have evolved a tribal instinct, and that it could be extended to ever farther reaching universalism.Personally I would have picked up the turkish kid off the beach with the other trash but a lot of people reacted as if it were their own.
    A lot of anti social dysfunction is evolved instincts reacting badly with new circumstances. I realize this group affinity gene is hotly debated these days but my gut says even if only a family affinity gene exists it might be pwnd.

    That said i dont think Christianity can be re purposed for reaction its entirely an extreme leftist irrational ideology.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    “do you thinks its possible we have evolved a tribal instinct, and that it could be extended to ever farther reaching universalism.”

    In all my years of nitpicking semantics, that would be the first time I’ve ever seen something ‘extended’ into its diametric opposite?

    I think the point about Christian leftism is entirely sound.

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 7:40 am Reply | Quote
  • John Hannon Says:

    “He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars. General good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite and flatterer.”

    – William Blake

    As relevantly quoted by Peter Hitchens here –

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223828/PETER-HITCHENS-won-t-save-refugees-destroying-country.html

    [Reply]

    Mark Warburton Reply:

    Snap, John. I posted that same quote from the article on my FB!

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 6th, 2015 at 10:20 pm Reply | Quote
  • Dots Says:

    @ashv

    isn’t HBD a fact? what does popular readiness matter? this is a sincere question. does HBD, as you use it, mean policies conducive to HBD’s expression in social outcomes?

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    HBD is more than a fact. It’s acknowledgment of a certain set of crimequestions and crimefacts.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 7th, 2015 at 12:10 am Reply | Quote
  • Dark Psy-Ops Says:

    @lucian

    The Cathedral is a perfectly legitimate Vampire organization, and I for one don’t consider it a big hassle to share this earth with the thing, and it surely has no idea NRx even exists. Of course, long term the prospects for NYT fascism are not looking good, and it’s not looking great for Sweden either, or Paris, or Boston, or…

    It’s not a moral question, it’s about the might of logic. If you take it as likely that the Cathedral’s plan will work, then by all means you should bow to its iron law and accept it as an adult, but if, like Moldbug, you suspect this latest flamboyant foray into Utopian communism will finish much like the last, then in effect you’re arguing that the Cathedral is not sovereign (as it may seem), and that there is another, much larger, Vampire Of The World.

    If there were no civilization on this earth but an Islamic one, and all people were Muslim, then it would be the true religion, and Allah would be the true God, but it is only one religion among others, and its truth is contentious. The same goes with the Cathedral, if it conquers the West, or worse, if it IS the West, then our only options are to accept its truth, and convert, or make an alternate bid for the destiny of terrestrial civilization. The race isn’t over yet, though to rip-off Foseti, if you’re after a sure victory, you probably can’t do much worse than sign-up for NRx.

    [Reply]

    Lucian of Samosata Reply:

    “…if you’re after a sure victory, you probably can’t do much worse than sign-up for NRx.”

    That’s because NRx is a part of the Cathedral.

    Getting outside the Cathedral is like getting a message from the Emperor in that Borges story.

    [Reply]

    Posted on September 8th, 2015 at 12:32 pm Reply | Quote

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