Quote note (#287)

Scott Alexander treads the lip of the abyss:

The one place where Clinton is higher-variance than Trump is immigration. Clinton does not explicitly support open borders, but given her election on a pro-immigration platform and the massive anti-Trump immigration backlash that seems to be materializing, it’s easy to see her moving in that direction. If you believe that immigrants can import the less-effective institutions of their home countries, lower the intelligence of the national hive mind, or cause ethnic fractionalization that replaces sustainable democratic politics with ethnic coalition-building (unlike the totally-not-ethnic-coalition-based politics of today, apparently?), that could potentially make the world less functional and prevent useful technologies from being deployed.

I consider this one of the strongest pro-Trump arguments …

(Don’t worry — he doesn’t fall in.)

September 29, 2016admin 57 Comments »


57 Responses to this entry

  • Thales Says:

    Ripley: Goddamn it, that’s not all. If one of those things get down here, that will be all. Then all this bullshit that you think is so important…you can kiss all that goodbye!


    vxxc2014 Reply:

    Nuke the rest of the planet from Orbit.

    Only way to be sure.


    Cryptogenic Reply:

    Ripley: They grab the colonists, they move them over there and they immobilize them to be hosts for more of these. Which would mean that there would have to be a lot of these parasites, right? One for each colonist. That’s over a hundred at least.
    Bishop: Yes, that follows.
    Ripley: But each one of these things comes from an egg, right? So who’s laying these eggs?
    Bishop: I’m not sure. It must be something we haven’t seen yet.


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 2:55 pm Reply | Quote
  • Uriel Alexis Says:

    given this is arguably the *main* point in Trump’s campaign, he shouldn’t have defaulted left on his vote.

    but as I said on twitter, I’d like to think he thinks he’s dupe-tier Cathedral, but actually is Right Acceleration. Trump’s presidency in fact would slow down decline of America and the emergence of a new world order (also slanting the scenario slightly in favor of populist (hubristic) politics). unfortunately for us, short of a headliner assassination of Trump, there’s very few chances he won’t start 2017 as POTUS.


    tsk Reply:

    Acceleration used to mean actually spurring a healthy counter-reaction to degenerate dysgenics.

    admin Reply:
    September 3rd, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    “If we can move leftward more quickly, dysgenics will have less time to take effect, …” — this is a key point, thanks. The longer the decay process lasts, the deeper it trawls into bio-cultural heritage, and the greater the danger that its effects become irreversible. I can’t imagine a fully-articulated neoreactionary case for Dark Acceleration that didn’t stress this strongly.

    But now, XS Acceleration is some kind of Ra’s al Ghul-ism, counter-signaling the anti-dysgenic reaction itself. The faster the US becomes Brazil, and the deeper into dysgenics it trawls, the faster it can… uh, accelerate, because “worse is better” never hits diminishing returns, and worsening the genetics further will somehow accelerate us towards eugenics even faster. Or something.

    At this point, I suspect you guys just enjoy cheerleading entropy, because cheerleading entropy is easy and lazy, and requires no effort. You are getting stale and cowardly.


    Steve Johnson Reply:

    At some point in the past there might have been the chance to grant the left a full victory. Since that chance wasn’t taken, the left has gone for full victory via demographics. The demographic triumph of progressivism is worse.

    The earlier chance to grant progressives full victory would have been open communism. Open communism would have ended at some point. Demographic destruction of the only humans capable of civilization? Not as much.

    It’s funny – the earlier attack was just on civilization – institutions that took generations to build – common law, corporations, markets, mutual aid societies, etc. Since that was only partially successful they had to move on to attacking at an even lower level – wiping out the genes that code for the cooperative behaviors necessary to building common law, corporations, markets, mutual aid societies, etc.


    Nicean Necropolitical Reply:

    >The earlier chance to grant progressives full victory would have been open communism. Open communism would have ended at some point. Demographic destruction of the only humans capable of civilization? Not as much.

    Interesting point. It seems to be somewhat made here, aswell. https://salo-forum.com/index.php?threads/the-gospel-according-to-thomas777.4482/

    Altho gotta pick on. The majority of civilizations in the modern academic consesus history have been non-white.

    Somehow Germanics were not a civilization until they adopted the Roman? A lot of history is not so visible. It´s a modern prejudice to think only civilizations that left writings were ‘real’. (Runes are writing anyway. What about advanced ship building?)

    Altho your point probably is that Western Civilization is relatively or quite unique (which it obviously is), in any case, nonwhites had plenty of civilizations.

    If those civilizations had Nordic origin, is another matter. But the Nordic origin myth is virtually universal.

    It is found e.g. in Greek, pre-Celtic, Indo-Aryan, Aryo-Persian, Armenic, Roman, Germanic, Tiwanaku, Teotihuacán, early Chinese, Aztec-Nahua, Inca and first Egyptian dynasties’ art and myth.

    Possibly peoples on this globe degenerate ‘regularly’ down to savages, and then after the planet goes dark in winter for a long time, a new Nordic expansions springs forth from the North after a few dozens of thousands of years of evolution.

    I.e. say the whole planet goes dark now, eventually, since Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Finland, British isles, and North America are currently going dark.

    So after 100+ IQ dies out, we all become savages. Electricity is lost. All civilization. No knowledge to build houses remains, as even the raw power to do so (IQ above ~85) is gone.

    It will take the planet (a shot in the dark) ~200.000 years for a new Nordic race to evolve in the harsh conditions of the post-Armageddon winter.

    Maybe the planet dies. Sun dies. Universe dies. Big bang happens again.

    Everlasting world without end. The die is cast.

    Have some fun, don´t be put down.

    RaHoWa now. Everything to lose, everything to gain.

    Capitalist Reply:

    Nicean, this is heading into something half as bad as African we was kangz territory. Are you really going to deny that Chinese are 100-104 IQ, and that Japanese are 105-107 IQ, or that Jewish people are 110-116 Iq(all these are rough estimates from memory)? Whites are most creative probably so far but it doesn’t mean Chinese and many others are savages for having black hair, black eyes, and darker skin.

    Dick Wagner Reply:

    IQ is a flimsy emblazonment onto chaos called science. Its use reminds me of a creation myth.

    @Negropolitical, could it be that the purpose [telos] of the Northerner is to spread its wealth and abundance?

    Capitalist Reply:

    IQ is not an exact measure of intelligence, it’s corrupted by the state of the test takers and administrators and the creators of the test, cultural knowledge blah blah blah yes.

    It’s not perfect but would you really deny that it’s even remotely possible to measure intelligence? Anyway, even if you want to get all continental about the whole concept of IQ and its just nebulous s mannnnnn it’s just a creation myth mannnnnnnn hahahah more LSD and ancient mythology please this guy seems to be implying that Nordics are the sources of all the civilizations, or at.east without them civilizations will die and won’t be able to function technologically or have populations with 100 IQ or more average.

    This seems very unlikely considering the great achievements of Jews, and also some of the achievements of many others.

    Dick Wagner Reply:

    What something is and how it is used are two different things. IQ could have been set up by plenty of “people with high IQ” for all I care – how people use it is another story. It’s usually in a very *Christian* manner how they use it. How YOU use it based on your defensive reaction. “Defensive Reaction” – that should be the headliner on this website instead of Outside in. Jk I’m a mere jester.

    When you said “creative” one post back, that’s what causes me to wonder what the test registers. Is there a test that appraises people based on their moment to moment behavior? Of course not, only human beings can do that. Is there a human being who is higher than the rest and could’ve written a reliably functioning IQ test, I don’t doubt it. But so far I don’t know who this Wise One is who wrote this IQ test. People tend to lap it up like cattle instead of wondering about that.

    @Necropolitical is a little biased, he’s Nordic. I’m only mostly Nordic so I’m a little less biased. Notice Necro died a little when he said “Somehow Germanics were not a civilization until they adopted the Roman?” or am I misinterpreting that question mark? I see this with the alt-right swarm on occasion, they start scratching their chins about the Ancient Romans and the Greeks. Aristotle and Ovid vs. Kant and Goethe O M G that it’s a battle at all demonstrates that brownish skinned folks are capable of being smart.

    Speaking of that, have you tapped into the Islamic Golden Age? Brother, you’re in for a treat. XS accuses us of having the ‘Jew thing’, well, XS has the ‘Arab thing’. If an Alfarabi, an Al Ghazali, and all the rest can come out of those Arab genes then multicultural Europe is step one, quit kneejerkin’, you know that White Christians have got nothing on Islamic Piety.

    Capitalist Reply:

    Oh, I’m a jester as well. My reaction was somewhat defensive as well, but I will note I am mostly Nordic descent just like you. It bothers me how many Nordica, whether here, other Internet rightist s, or wherever seem to be in denial about how much we suck. It’s this kind of blind belief in our superiority that negro and others seem to exhibit is part of the reason we’re in our mess

    The argument often seems to be “we’re failing because we’re the most intellect/creative/strongest/truthful/moral race”. Even if all of those are true, which seems awfully suspicious, that doesn’t mean we’re destined to win. It’s possible that we were a flash in the Pan, just the best for the past 500, 700, 4000, maybe 2 million years, but we’re destined for the dust heap of history, never to return or be remembered by anyone very soon, leaving no trace. I’m being hyperbolic but just because we were the best or were the smartest doesn’t mean “Gnon” as admin calls it will appreciate it. Gnon doesn’t nescarily like intelligent AIs either, he might prefer monkeys or tapeworms.

    Basically if we’re losing because we’re getting duped by perfidious jews, we shouldn’t be proud of being “Nobel” dupes.

    Dick Wagner Reply:

    “Winning” is for niggers. Europeans are superior thru letting other races win. This is the racial sublimation involved in the Full Communism complot. The chosen people and the goyim lower to their knee for the coming hordes of hate-niggers. Is this the best way? It seems that Gnon thinks so. Seeing that that is what is happening. –Or is Neoreaction happening?

    Pieta Reply:

    Marx nailing Nietzsche to the cross, while $@& watches.

    Capitalist Reply:

    Is admin using the means of hyper capitalism and pretending to be one so he can accomplish the goals of his Marxist past? Just like how he’s using analytical style/temperament while writing more like a continental?

    Dick Wagner Reply:

    I, for one, Capitalist, believe Land is a Communist spy.

    cyborg_nomade Reply:

    the faster the US becomes whatever it’s going to become, without putting the burden of progressive lousy decisions on the right, the faster Brazil, China and many other places can become something better without the globalist progressive police on their heels.


    tsk Reply:

    Your take-away from Trump is that his success is retarding anti-immigration politics worldwide. You’ve somehow reached the exact opposite conclusion of virtually everyone else commenting on the subject.

    And your reasoning is that if Trump is defeated, Brazil can watch the US become… Brazil… and this will somehow shake Brazil to the bone, and into becoming a post-Brazil, anti-Cathedral techtopia.

    Uh huh.


    Nicean Necropolitical Reply:

    >“If we can move leftward more quickly, dysgenics will have less time to take effect, …”

    Seems to be what cyborg_nomade is saying.

    Is it not?

    tsk Reply:

    Yes. He’s confident that Hillary will be succeeded by some anti-immigration person who is so much more anti-immigration than Trump, it will be worth letting in 30 million mestizos, Africans and Muslims.

    Nicean Necropolitical Reply:

    Is that what you´re saying, cyborg_nomade?

    cyborg_nomade Reply:

    certainly, electing Trump is not going to halt the degenerative ratchet, but merely make it last longer.


    Dick Wagner Reply:

    “He’s confident that Hillary will be succeeded by some anti-immigration person who is so much more anti-immigration than Trump, it will be worth letting in 30 million mestizos, Africans and Muslims.”

    Why do you assume the cycle will stop there? Why won’t someone who is much more pro-immigration than Hillary follow the one who is much more anti-immigration than Trump? Sounds redundant, not to mention dangerous. Can’t say it wouldn’t make things more exciting…


    tsk Reply:

    Exactly. Brazil and Sweden passed by the Hillary point without the emergence of some super-Trump.

    Accelerationism used to be proposed by people who actually understood what they meant. But now, XS acceleration simply means nihilism, and the desire for victory of stupid brown people over the West.

    nnms Reply:

    >But now, XS acceleration simply means nihilism, and the desire for victory of stupid brown people over the West.

    Now? Nick Land has always been intellectually dishonest. His opposition to the “Cathedral” never made a lick of sense. Which is why he has always acted in such a cringe-inducing, pathetically defensive manner at every occasion it was pointed out.

    admin Reply:

    Acting “a cringe-inducing, pathetically defensive manner” sounds bad, so — in the absence of anything approaching an abstract argument — at least one example would be nice. Sub-anecdotal invective is mere abuse.

    It’s quite obvious to most people who collide with it that a post-theistic Christian church has taken power in the West. Its horror at any sign of heresy from recognizable, legacy religious tenets is one reliable signature.

    Fascist-style profile from you so far — Positive ideas too mindlessly crude to display in public, so lots of drive-by aggression and ‘attitude’. You probably won’t be around for long.

    Relevant Tangent Reply:

    This is delusional, and it indicates a deeply flawed understanding of the world. When Hillary ends up winning decisively, you need to rethink your basic concepts, because they’re blinding you to how people work.


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 3:03 pm Reply | Quote
  • Brett Stevens Says:

    Or the simple truth: homogeneous societies are happier and more functional. More immigration = less social trust, more corruption, more unintentional sodomy, etc.


    John Hannon Reply:

    “unintentional sodomy”

    Now there’s a concept.


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 3:05 pm Reply | Quote
  • vxxc2014 Says:

    If I live 10 years I’ll live to see Scott Alexander in Brownshirt with a Swastika [or Hell make it Pepe] on his arm.

    Yglesias, all of them. Threaten their beloved institutional funding they’ll fucking roast Ann Frank on a pit fire and eat her charred flesh. Andrew Sullivan will be dancing around in SS leather.

    Worse Catholics like me will probably again be leading the actual resistance – just like last time.

    >>>on that last point ..it’s called sanity.


    michael Reply:



    vxxc2014 Reply:

    Mike you can be General Beck in this scenario.

    Except we win cuz its my Valkyrie.


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 4:25 pm Reply | Quote
  • wu-wei Says:

    >If you believe that immigrants can import the [i]less-effective institutions[/i] of their home countries, [i]lower the intelligence of the national hive mind[/i], or cause [i]ethnic fractionalization[/i] that replaces sustainable democratic politics with ethnic coalition-building

    No need to place an “or” between the separate clauses, Scott. These are all describing the exact same thing.


    >(unlike the totally-not-ethnic-coalition-based politics of today, apparently?)

    If a spoonful of poison will kill you, then…


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 7:08 pm Reply | Quote
  • Contaminated NEET Says:

    Well look at that, Scott Alexander is flirting with crimethink, but pulling back just before he’s said anything unforgiveable. This is, what, the 20th time he’s done this? SA is never, never going to join your little club of problematic racist shitlords. He’s smart, no question, and on some level he knows which side his bread is buttered on.


    Anon Reply:

    >He’s smart

    Not really.


    admin Reply:

    Oh c’mon.


    s(R) Reply:

    I would normally agree, but seeing as he just came out as a liberal institutionalist…

    Intelligence competitions among non-Realists are something of a paralympics.

    Capitalist Reply:

    He’s pretty smart. He might benefit from immigrants, while I don’t think you’ll get an invitation from the Elders anytime soon, he might.


    nnms Reply:

    He’s a clever silly. A living stereotype of one.


    michael Reply:

    Wait are we talking about Admin now or SA?


    Contaminated NEET Reply:



    admin Reply:

    Why would we want him to join our “little club of problematic racist shitlords”? That kind of solidarity-mongering is Alt-Right mentality.


    Contaminated NEET Reply:

    Why indeed? Obviously I don’t know, but if I had to hazard a guess, I’d say it’s because you respect him and you’d feel validation if he converted to your cause. You can talk all you want about how you’re not a movement, but you’re still human, and it feels awfully good when other monkeys join your band, especially monkeys you like and respect. He seems to be one of the sanest members of the Less Wrong cult (not that that’s saying much), and probably one of the smarter members (that is).


    admin Reply:

    That might be a general species propensity, but it’s not one that I indulge. SA is doing just fine where he is. There’s far more joy to be found in every jackass who departs NRx than from any successful recruitment. (Anything in double figures is too large for an NRx circle, IMHO, so it’s not as if there are slots to be filled, even by genius-tier types.)

    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 7:10 pm Reply | Quote
  • wu-wei Says:

    From Scott’s essay:
    >Leftism has never been about controlling the government, and really the government is one of the areas it controls least effectively – even now both houses of Congress, most state legislatures, most governors, etc, are Republican. When people say that the Left is in control, they’re talking about academia, the media, the arts, and national culture writ large. But all of these things have a tendency to define themselves in opposition to the government.

    This is kind of incredible. The entire purpose of “leftism” is to capture the state. That’s it; nothing more or less. Very telling that Scott omitted the entire freakin’ civil services from his analysis (which, you know, do the actual governing in USG), and who are of course overwhelming progressive democrat (for obvious conflict-of-interest reasons).

    Interesting as well to suggest that academia and media etc. are anti-government. Of course they are anti-government – that is, the parts which they disagree with (DoD), while being infinitely devoted to the parts they adore (State, the greater civil services, “education”, welfare, etc…) – again, for obvious conflict-of-interest reasons.

    Unlike some of the folks here, I actually find Scott’s blog to be quite often interesting and thought-provoking, but damn did he put his democracy blinders on when he wrote this retarded essay. And I’m probably about as far away from being a Trumple as he is.


    TheDividualist Reply:

    Of course he means Red Government under government. It is a very common mistake since Red Government is what government is actually supposed to be. The Blue Government is a… state church? Education, healthcare, welfare were in the Middle Ages church functions. I think calling it a state church is reasonably accurate.

    In this sense it is not accurate to say the Left is all about capturing government. I think it is more accurate to say they are trying to turn their church into a state church while making the actual government, the kind of people who are trying to enforce order and law and things like that, largely irrelevant.

    In that sense, the idea is that they are going to turn people into angels so they would not need no government in that old, actual sense of it. However since they are doing for a long while now, in practice their state church is running large chunks of what in the more modern and warped sense people came to define as “government” e.g. dept of education.


    Peter A. Taylor Reply:

    I think you need to look at people’s objectives in terms of Bruce Yandle’s “Bootleggers and Baptists” model. The bootleggers want money and power. The Baptists want moral bragging rights. The leftists that Alexander identifies with are the “Baptists”. The Clintons are “bootleggers”.


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 10:12 pm Reply | Quote
  • michael Says:


    well lets wait to make our move till spencer and co bring out the long knives for milo


    Posted on September 29th, 2016 at 10:23 pm Reply | Quote
  • Seth Largo Says:

    Lol . . . . if only Trump himself could actually muster that kind of sophisticated thinking regarding the negative externalities of indiscriminate immigration policies.


    Posted on October 1st, 2016 at 12:04 am Reply | Quote
  • Dick Wagner Says:

    Are we supposed to be following Moldbug’s gameplan and forging the Antiversity? The MO lately seems to be the shunning of the pop-right – is that an unexpected feature of our work toward the Antiversity?

    Moldbug wants us to read old books (Maine, Froude, Carlyle) but the vibe I get from Admin is we should be reading the latest scientific journals. What should one be doing with one’s time?


    Lucian Reply:

    The most important thing about getting the antiversity right is ensuring it doesn’t end up with the same perverse features as the universities.


    Nicean Necropolitical Reply:

    This excerpt from ‘Le bilan de l’intelligence’ (1935), translated into English as ‘The Outlook For Intelligence’, was also published at https://elementsdeducationraciale.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/les-mefaits-de-linstruction-publique-ii/, as well as other considerations on the evils of public education.

    « I never hesitate to declare that the diploma is the deadly enemy of culture. As diplomas have become more important in our lives (and their importance has done nothing but grow as a result of economic conditions), the less has education had any real effect. As regulations have multiplied, the results have grown worse.
    Worse in their effect on the public mind and on the mind generally. Worse because a diploma creates hopes and the illusion that certain rights have been acquired. Worse because of the stratagems and subterfuges it gives rise to: the recommendations, the strategic “cramming,” and, indeed, the use of every expedient for crossing the redoubtable threshold.
    That, we must admit, is a strange and detestable preparation for intellectual and civic life.
    Furthermore, if I take my stand on experience alone and look at the effects of regulation in general, I note that regulation will, in all matters, finally vitiate action and pervert it. I have already said so : once an action is put under regulations, the ulterior aim of the one who acts is no longer the action
    itself. He anticipates the regulations, and thinks how to circumvent them. Examinations are merely a particular case and a striking proof of this very general observation.
    The diploma grants to society a phantom guarantee; and to the diploma-holders, phantom rights. The diploma-holder is officially considered to know; all his life he keeps that certificate of some momentary and purely expedient knowledge. Moreover, the holder of a diploma is led in the name of the law to believe that something is owed to him. No practice ever instituted was more fatal for everyone, the State and the individual (and, in particular, for culture).
    It is with a view to the diploma, for example, that the reading of authors has been replaced by the use of summaries, manuals, absurd digests of knowledge, ready-made collections of questions and answers, extracts, and other abominations. The result is that nothing in this adulterated form of culture can be helpful or suitable to the life of a developing mind. » ((p. 149-51)

    The following statement is hardly less insightful :
    « Do not let us over-estimate the advantages conferred by mere education as ordinarily understood. Its results mainly depend upon the inherent character of the soil into which it falls. Thus, education can never make fools wise ; but it can undoubtedly bestow upon them a larger area for the exercise of their folly. » (Robert Brown, Semitic Influence in Hellenic Mythology, Londres, Longmans, Green & Co. p. xi, 1898)


    Posted on October 1st, 2016 at 3:23 am Reply | Quote
  • Lucian Says:

    Scott Alexander is a cuckold.


    admin Reply:

    Yeah, go on, raise the tone.


    Posted on October 1st, 2016 at 9:53 am Reply | Quote
  • Nicean Necropolitical Says:

    As I told commentator Steven Johnson, there´s quite apparently a multitude of nonwhite civilizations.

    Quite obviously one might say, but I happen to be a Nordic We Wuz Kangs with over a decade of sporadic reading in that fertile field.

    I happen also to fit Evola´s Nordic-Aryan race, and to have 1.200 years of documented lineage in a small area of the Northern hemisphere, so yes, we all have our “bias.”

    Majority of Nordics now are descended from what used to be the slaves of the aristocrats there, so it´s not strange that they´re democrats.

    Nordic can mean a racial category, of which Nordid is a subrace (a minority even in Iceland), or it can mean simply a geographic location w/ eskimos on it.

    As for Africans descending from kangs, yes, some of them do, as kings tend to sire a lot of children, and Africa has had countless kingdoms and multiple empires.



    Pre-Islamic empires of North Africa:

    Kingdom of Kerma (2500 BC–1500 BC)
    Ancient land of Punt (2500 BC)
    Opone/Xāfūn (1000 BC–500 AD)
    Kingdom of Kush (1070 BC–350 AD)
    Nobatia (350 AD–650 AD)
    Makuria (340 AD–1312 AD)

    I think everyone is biased, but I am certainly not a very biased person. I recognize Jewish and Arabic establishments. If appreciating them is being philosemitic, then count me in. I´ve read quite a lot about the Islamic origin of Modern civilization.

    Just to mention a single thing:
    “As early as the 9th century A.D., a Muslim scholar named ‘Abbas Ibn Firnas pioneered the study of aviation.Ibn Firnas invented a gliding device which managed to be airborne for a short duration of time. Although he was badly injured during a bad landing, he successfully pioneered the theory on the structure of ornithopter which is a vital component for aircraft stability during landing. This article unveils the early history of aviation beginning from the early period of Islamic golden age to the 20th century A.D. that has witnessed Western effort in introducing machine in aircraft. This research employs a qualitative method via library research and document analysis. It argues that the invention of ornithopter by ‘Abbas Ibn Firnas has inspired the West to further develop the aviation technology thus influenced the modern method of flying. Therefore, naturally ‘Abbas Ibn Firnas should be recognised as ‘the father of the aviation field’ for his invaluable contribution to the contemporary field of aviation technology of the world.”

    And the pre-Roman, indeed, pre-Aryan (Etruscan, etc), origin of a lot of what is attributed to the Romans.

    Anyway, to start w/ the Nordic, an article by someone who calls himself « integral tradition »:

    The Mystery of Blood
    Otto Forst de Battaglia

    I would like to present here an abstract of a short study titled “Das Geheimnis des Blutes” (“The Mystery of Blood”) published in 1932 by the Austrian genealogist Otto Forst de Battaglia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Forst_de_Battaglia ) dealing with some questions regarding the ancestry of the ruling houses of (old) Europe. Since this survey basically deals with matters, which were repeatedly addressed by Evola, in particular race (blood) and nobility, it might be of interest for the members of this list. It must be emphasised however that some of the conclusions drawn by this author significantly differ from what Julius Evola would have deducted from the material. It also has to be pointed out that Forst does not tackle the fundamental problem, which in the first place would establish the theoretical basis for the subsequent investigations of the historical data, namely the definition of “race”, which after all is the subject matter. In this regard it has to be taken into account that, obviously, Forst did not have any DNA data at hand. This limitation of method, however, might be regarded as favorable in this regard since it entails an abstraction from the mere biological sphere.

    It is, by the way, interesting that Forst does not mention the “Semi-Gotha”, a historical-genealogical handbook published in 1912 trying to trace Jewish blood in German noble families, or the preceding catalog “Geadelte jüdische Familien” (Entitled Jewish Families).

    In general, this short study seems to be well-founded by data, since Forst can resort to hundreds and thousands of pedigrees of members of all classes and nations of Europe, which he does (and can) not present in detail. Instead of exhibiting a vast quantity of material this study is presenting the essential results of these investigations and a number of conclusions from them in a condensed manner. Only a few, not very extensive pedigrees of royal houses are reproduced.

    Forst starts from the fundamental fact of genetics, namely that the characteristics of the ancestors will – or more precisely, can – be found in their offspring. He then explains some basics of genealogical study in general, namely the nature and function of genealogical tables and pedigrees for the display of the ancestry and the progeny of an individual. In this context he points out that conventional genealogy has often neglected maternal ancestry, which, from a pure biological viewpoint, is of the same if not even higher importance as the paternal one. [Evola presumably would have voiced some objections here, at least as far as “traditional” societies are concerned. Forst himself later suggests a substantially differentiated view, see below.]

    The author then presents some issues particulary pertaining to the genealogy of the higher nobilty, namely ‘pedigree collapse’ (implex) induced by endogamy. (explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse ). Thus, just according to mathematical principles, the influence in terms of heredity exerted by some ancestors is higher than that of others. For this phenomenon Forst suggests the term „intensity of heredity” (“Erbsintensität”). He also sees that some characteristics have a higher potential of being transferred by inheritance and sometimes are inherited by overleaping one generation. Thus, the question of „lines of force” (Kraftlinien) is raised, but has not been sufficiently investigated at the time of writing this booklet.

    Pedigrees in general show the national and racial composition of the blood of an individuum and a picture of social stability, rise and fall. Since the relevant research material, namely not only accurate genealogical tables, but also detailed personal data of the ancestors shown in them, is by far the most comprehensive regarding the highest borns, such an investigation can be restricted to this group.

    Following these considerations Forst is particularly investigating the pedigrees of Archuduke Franz Ferdinand von Österreich-Este, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary and of Rupprecht, the last Crown Prince of Bavaria, then head of the Wittelsbach dynasty.

    For both, whose situations are representative for the catholic royal houses of Europe, Forst has very comprehensive, unrefuted and complete material available, which has been produced by archive studies over years. Based on that materil the author analyses the nationalities and the social composition of their respective ancestry. The results, which are quite similar for both, can not be reproduced here in detail, but lead Forst to the conclusion that the catholic princes of modern times (Habsburg, Bourbon, Wittelsbach, Wettin) share by and large all the same ancestry.

    The author then examines the ancestry of the European higher nobility in general and its national and social composition. All so-called ‘extinct’ dynasties of the middle ages (Carlovingians, Franconian and Saxon Kings, Hohenstaufen, Luxembourg, Piast, Árpád, Přemyslid and Rurik dynasties, the Byzantine Komnenos and Palaiologan dynasties, the Laskaris, the house of Kantakouzenos, the Angelos and the Doukas families) live on through their female issue in the present higher and lower nobility. The intermarriage of the European royal houses throughout the centuries led to a close relationship between all of them. There are even links to the far east and antiquity. Through the Palaiologues of Montserrat, the serbian despotes and the Komnenic offshoot of the Emperors of Trapezunt, Georgia and the Persian Sassanides there is a link of all European royal houses to ancient Chinese and other Asian dynasties.

    Through Zaida of Seville, daughter of Abu-Amr Abbad al Mu’tadid, concubine of Alfonso VI, King of Leon and of Castile (died 1109) and mother of Theresa of Portugal, the Prophet Mohammed is progenitor of all royal houses.

    There seem to exist several links to Genghis Khan through Russian dynasties and Tatar Khan families. For example, the daughter of the Khan Mengu-Timur (a descendant of Genghis Khan), who became wife of Theodore the Black Rostislavich, is ancestor of the princes of Yaroslavl and, consequently, of the Romanovs, then the house of Saxony and, for example, Wilhelm II, German Emperor as well as of the whole European royalty including the British kings. Other links to Asian blood lead through the Jagiellonians via the Rurikids and Tatar princes.

    Forst shows that popes, military commanders, saints, scholars, revolutionaries, poets and even peasants and proletarians (in the social sense) belong, even though very distant and scarce, to the ancestors of the highest nobility.

    Forst then analyses the general preconditions, the extent and the result of consanguine marriage/inbreedig/incest and pedigree collapse (implex) in history. Extreme examples are the mexican inka kings, the egyptian pharaos and hellenistic kings, who were the product of marriages among siblings as ordered by their respective (constitutional) laws.

    In contrast to what is usually expected, inbreeding and even incest, according to Forst, do not seem to be per se destructive. Their chances as well as their dangers lie in the intensification of certain hereditary features. For Forst, positive examples are Prince Eugene of Savoy, Frederick the Great, the Seleucids and the Ptolemaic dynasty. On the other hand, the Spanish Habsburgs, in which the qualities of individuals like Joanna the Mad (Juana la Loca) from the House of Trastámara were bred, constitute a negative example.

    Regarding the question of the intensity of heredity it shows that not each ancestor of the same generation has the same. In general, the male (paternal) line seems to have a stronger effect in terms of inheritance. In this context Forst introduces the hypothesis that inheritance of a hereditary feature depends firstly on the individual intensity of heredity (“Erbsintensitä”t) of this particular feature/ancestor and secondly on the place of the particular ancestor within the pedigree. In this respect a place is more privileged if it lies closer to a line, which leads to the progeny in the strict male line or in the strict female line.

    With regard to the national and racial composition it can be stated that in general regarding all social strata the degree of intermixture is higher the closer it comes to present time. Since the start of the 18th century everywhere the previously absent russian and the jewish blood invades the West, even to circles of which it was generally unexpected. Forst brings some examples for jewish (from Safirov, vicechancellor of Peter the Great), yellow and negro (through Pushkin, Alexandre Dumas) blood.

    However, it would be wrong to conclude from the undoubtedly frequent mixture with foreign races that Europa including its most noble circles constitute a complete mix of races. Negro, Mongolian and Jewish blood are exceptions within the genealogy of the upper class and even more so in the lower nobility and in peasantry. According to Forst the cadre is [when this study was issued] constituted by indigenous people.
    The Catholic and the Protestant royal houses are almost without intermarriage since the 16th century. Since the difference in the religious denomination has also separated the nations, the ancestors of the Catholic and the Protestant high nobility differ in terms of nationality. The predominance of German blood is higher in Protestant than in Catholic princes.

    Until the 12th century the members of the ruling houses are virtually of pure Germanic blood. A slight admixture of old roman, byzantine-greek, russian-slavic and mongolian genetic material can hardly be noticed. Since the 13th centry, an increasing share of slavic, in particular western slavic and only few south slavic, old latin (from France and Southern Italy), celtic (from Scottish and Irish dynasties) and relatively much greek (trough the byzantine Emperors and magnates) and Armenian and finally Mongolian (Hungarian, Tartar, Kumano-Turkish, Old Bulgarian) blood has been adding.

    All in all, Forst comes to the conclusion that the European ruling class is almost in total Nordic-Germanic. This thesis, intuitively captured by racial theorists like Gobineau, Woltmann and Günther, is reflected by the results of the Schmidtian doctrine of cultural cirlces (Kulturkreis; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkreis ) and is now confirmed by undeniable data. Consequently, in most European countries there is a contrast between a Germanic upper class and the lower classes of different blood. Clearly and with overwhelming weight a fundamental fact becomes visible: European history since the Migration period is characterized by a contrast of a homogenous ruling class to the subject classes, which, outside of Germany and Scandinavia, sharply differs from the rulers in terms of blood [I would say inside Germany and Scandinavia too]. For Forst, this shows the greater ability of the Nordic race to rule but does not say anything about an ethical or spiritual quality of a nation or a race.

    The political predominance of the Nordic ruling class has been decreasing since the French Revolution and since that time the racial homogeneity of the high nobility is shattered. For example, the share of Germanic blood in the Habsburg dynasty was constantly decreasing since centuries. The (then) present head of the dynasty (Otto von Habsburg, 1912 – 2011) already is, according to Forst, of mainly non-German and non-Nordic blood.

    Another result Forst draws from this study is that there is no strict segregation between the classes. Proletariat, bourgeoisie and nobility are not strictly separated in genealogical terms. There is no proletarian, who does not have kings and no king, and no king who does not have proletarians under his ancestors. Absolute purity of blood is a fiction, relative purity and the separation of classes and nations by different compositions of their blood is a fact caused by natural borders and natural bridges between classes and nations. Forst concludes that we are, so to speak, prisoners, but not slaves of our blood. There still remains a certain amount of freedom.

    [End of article.]


    Posted on October 1st, 2016 at 1:17 pm Reply | Quote
  • Worm Says:

    “In some way that is incomprehensible to me they have pushed right into the capital, although it is a long way from the frontier. At any rate, here they are; it seems that every morning there are more of them….

    Speech with the nomads is impossible. They do not know our language.”

    Franz Kafka (“The Great Wall of China”?)


    D. Reply:

    “An Old Manuscript”, one of Kafka’s shorter stories or parables, written during the war.


    Posted on October 4th, 2016 at 12:41 am Reply | Quote

Leave a comment