<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Retro-Dialectics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/</link>
	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2015 06:56:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Neoreactionary Dialectic &#124; Banner of Cosmos</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-32095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neoreactionary Dialectic &#124; Banner of Cosmos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jan 2014 05:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-32095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] few days ago, I wrote a long comment at Nick Land&#8217;s post on Retro-Dialectics. It&#8217;s long, rambling and sleep deprived, but I want to repost it [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] few days ago, I wrote a long comment at Nick Land&#8217;s post on Retro-Dialectics. It&#8217;s long, rambling and sleep deprived, but I want to repost it [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-32015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VXXC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-32015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is a brilliant permutation of Exit Admin.  

 Let their own vices be their gallows.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a brilliant permutation of Exit Admin.  </p>
<p> Let their own vices be their gallows.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Francis St. Pol</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-32005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Francis St. Pol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 07:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-32005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I feel compelled to make a clarification. On the scale of possible superstimuli, heroin is quite tame. Imagine fully immersive virtual reality. Imagine what an enslaved AI could do to your subjective hedonic experience. Actually, no, don&#039;t imagine that. Fantasizing about the ministrations of a slave AI is Yudkowsky&#039;s Basilisk. Very dangerous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel compelled to make a clarification. On the scale of possible superstimuli, heroin is quite tame. Imagine fully immersive virtual reality. Imagine what an enslaved AI could do to your subjective hedonic experience. Actually, no, don&#8217;t imagine that. Fantasizing about the ministrations of a slave AI is Yudkowsky&#8217;s Basilisk. Very dangerous.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Francis St. Pol</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-32003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Francis St. Pol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-32003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a quote I have been unsuccessfully trying to find the origin of. El Goog is being singularly unhelpful, giving me, variously, Aristotle, Kant, Thomas Fuller and Pietro Pomponazzi. I suspect that the phrase is from none of these, but rather an emergent paraphrase that (in various forms) second-hand writers have found themselves converging upon. Certainly the underlying thought is anything but unique:

&quot;Virtue is its own reward, Vice its own punishment.&quot;

Replacing Virtue with our host&#039;s axiom of Intelligence Optimization (and Vice with Intelligence Corruption), yields two pretty spirals, upwards and downwards. John Q. Public is bored. He decides to read. He has questions about the subject, questions that can only be answered by further reading. And thus he spirals upwards. John Q. Public is bored. He decides to try a little heroin. And thus he spirals downwards. 

The downward spiral is limited first by habituation (hedonic treadmill) and finally by biological reality (overdose and death). The upward spiral is limited also by habituation (standards increase, questions multiply, better competition, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis) and finally by biological reality (brain can&#039;t foom). 

Technology and civilization amplify these spirals. Neither books no heroin existed in the ancestral savannah. Both are superstimuli. 

As described by our host, the liberal dialectic goes something like this (cribbed from La Wik):

Thesis: anarchy + poverty (primitive communism, Thank you, M. Rousseau.) 
Antithesis: hierarchy + wealth (slavery, feudalism, and capitalism)
Synthesis: anarchy  + wealth (final communism)

Ahh, the various imagined final communisms. The state withers away. Ancap security corps protect us from a world of pacifists. All money is Bitcoin, but with programmable matter, who needs money? A world without any scarcity especially the scarcity of scarce things. 

The Neoreaction holds this dialectic to be incorrect . It starts from the false premise that Man is socially atomic. The state of nature was neither bellum omnium contra omnes nor the noble savage. It was tribal. In the state of nature, without his tribe, Man simply dies. And what is a tribe without hierarchy? 

Behold, Man, the pack hunter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o (persistence hunting is impossible without supporting runners). 

The Neoreactionary dialectic starts from a different thesis, and must therefore be entirely distinct in antithesis and conclusion.

Thesis: Hierarchy, Substimulus (tribes, feudalism, paleoreaction)

Civilization can perhaps be described as the process of Man developing his superstimuli. Writing, beer, campfires, recreational sex, clothes etc. etc. But for a very long time, those stimuli were unbelievably scarce. Extreme hierarchy was needed to develop them at all. Imagine the process of making beer from scratch, really from scratch.

Antithesis: Anarchy, Superstimulus (industrialization, communism)

Then, abruptly, superstimuli got much less scarce. Increasingly less hierarchy was needed to achieve the same or greater effects. Since less hierarchy was needed, hierarchy started to wither away. A process which has occurred before, but never at so great a scale (cf. Rome, http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.de/2007/05/antisingularity.html).

Synthesis: Hierarchy, Superstimulus (neoreaction)

Which brings me back to upward and downward spirals (respectively, http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15308 and http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/john-magee.html).

The synthesis of the Neoreaction is that we need hierarchy, not just to create superstimuli, but also to master them. To not be destroyed by them. They are dangerous. An adult gives a child books rather than heroin. Or, if they do, the result is unsurprisingly vicious. And our world frequently gives heroin-class superstimuli to children, literal and metaphorical (e.g. democracy : power :: porn : sex). Resulting in unacceptable Intelligence Corruption. The downward spiral is just slow suicide. Do people have the right to suicide? Not inside my hierarchy they don&#039;t. 

The implied solution of the Neoreactionary synthesis: Build hierarchy. Within hierarchy, optimize for intelligence, serve Cosmos. Spiral upwards. Let outside the hierarchy deal with itself. It&#039;ll eventually ask to come in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a quote I have been unsuccessfully trying to find the origin of. El Goog is being singularly unhelpful, giving me, variously, Aristotle, Kant, Thomas Fuller and Pietro Pomponazzi. I suspect that the phrase is from none of these, but rather an emergent paraphrase that (in various forms) second-hand writers have found themselves converging upon. Certainly the underlying thought is anything but unique:</p>
<p>&#8220;Virtue is its own reward, Vice its own punishment.&#8221;</p>
<p>Replacing Virtue with our host&#8217;s axiom of Intelligence Optimization (and Vice with Intelligence Corruption), yields two pretty spirals, upwards and downwards. John Q. Public is bored. He decides to read. He has questions about the subject, questions that can only be answered by further reading. And thus he spirals upwards. John Q. Public is bored. He decides to try a little heroin. And thus he spirals downwards. </p>
<p>The downward spiral is limited first by habituation (hedonic treadmill) and finally by biological reality (overdose and death). The upward spiral is limited also by habituation (standards increase, questions multiply, better competition, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis</a>) and finally by biological reality (brain can&#8217;t foom). </p>
<p>Technology and civilization amplify these spirals. Neither books no heroin existed in the ancestral savannah. Both are superstimuli. </p>
<p>As described by our host, the liberal dialectic goes something like this (cribbed from La Wik):</p>
<p>Thesis: anarchy + poverty (primitive communism, Thank you, M. Rousseau.)<br />
Antithesis: hierarchy + wealth (slavery, feudalism, and capitalism)<br />
Synthesis: anarchy  + wealth (final communism)</p>
<p>Ahh, the various imagined final communisms. The state withers away. Ancap security corps protect us from a world of pacifists. All money is Bitcoin, but with programmable matter, who needs money? A world without any scarcity especially the scarcity of scarce things. </p>
<p>The Neoreaction holds this dialectic to be incorrect . It starts from the false premise that Man is socially atomic. The state of nature was neither bellum omnium contra omnes nor the noble savage. It was tribal. In the state of nature, without his tribe, Man simply dies. And what is a tribe without hierarchy? </p>
<p>Behold, Man, the pack hunter: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o</a> (persistence hunting is impossible without supporting runners). </p>
<p>The Neoreactionary dialectic starts from a different thesis, and must therefore be entirely distinct in antithesis and conclusion.</p>
<p>Thesis: Hierarchy, Substimulus (tribes, feudalism, paleoreaction)</p>
<p>Civilization can perhaps be described as the process of Man developing his superstimuli. Writing, beer, campfires, recreational sex, clothes etc. etc. But for a very long time, those stimuli were unbelievably scarce. Extreme hierarchy was needed to develop them at all. Imagine the process of making beer from scratch, really from scratch.</p>
<p>Antithesis: Anarchy, Superstimulus (industrialization, communism)</p>
<p>Then, abruptly, superstimuli got much less scarce. Increasingly less hierarchy was needed to achieve the same or greater effects. Since less hierarchy was needed, hierarchy started to wither away. A process which has occurred before, but never at so great a scale (cf. Rome, <a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.de/2007/05/antisingularity.html" rel="nofollow">http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.de/2007/05/antisingularity.html</a>).</p>
<p>Synthesis: Hierarchy, Superstimulus (neoreaction)</p>
<p>Which brings me back to upward and downward spirals (respectively, <a href="http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15308" rel="nofollow">http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15308</a> and <a href="http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/john-magee.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/john-magee.html</a>).</p>
<p>The synthesis of the Neoreaction is that we need hierarchy, not just to create superstimuli, but also to master them. To not be destroyed by them. They are dangerous. An adult gives a child books rather than heroin. Or, if they do, the result is unsurprisingly vicious. And our world frequently gives heroin-class superstimuli to children, literal and metaphorical (e.g. democracy : power :: porn : sex). Resulting in unacceptable Intelligence Corruption. The downward spiral is just slow suicide. Do people have the right to suicide? Not inside my hierarchy they don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>The implied solution of the Neoreactionary synthesis: Build hierarchy. Within hierarchy, optimize for intelligence, serve Cosmos. Spiral upwards. Let outside the hierarchy deal with itself. It&#8217;ll eventually ask to come in.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: etype</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-32001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[etype]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 05:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-32001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Retro-Dialectics:  
                            &quot;And now good Countrey men let us (I pray you) consider, what honour or policie can moove us to imitate the barbarous and beastly maners of the wilde, godlesse, and slavish Indians, especially in so vile and stinking a custome? Shall wee that disdaine to imitate the maners of our neighbour France (having the stile of the first Christian Kingdom) and that cannot endure the spirit of the Spaniards (their King being now comparable in largenes of Dominions, to the great Emperor of Turkie) Shall wee, I say, that have bene so long civill and wealthy in Peace, famous and invincible in Warre, fortunate in both, we that have bene ever able to aide any of our neighbours (but never deafed any of their eares with any of our supplications for assistance) shall we, I say, without blushing, abase our selves so farre, as to imitate these beastly Indians, slaves to the Spaniards, refuse to the world, and as yet aliens from the holy Covenant of God? Why doe we not as well imitate them in walking naked as they doe? in preferring glasses, feathers, and such toyes, to golde and precious stones, as they do? yea why do we not denie God and adore the Devill, as they doe? &quot;

James I;  1604]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Retro-Dialectics:<br />
                            &#8220;And now good Countrey men let us (I pray you) consider, what honour or policie can moove us to imitate the barbarous and beastly maners of the wilde, godlesse, and slavish Indians, especially in so vile and stinking a custome? Shall wee that disdaine to imitate the maners of our neighbour France (having the stile of the first Christian Kingdom) and that cannot endure the spirit of the Spaniards (their King being now comparable in largenes of Dominions, to the great Emperor of Turkie) Shall wee, I say, that have bene so long civill and wealthy in Peace, famous and invincible in Warre, fortunate in both, we that have bene ever able to aide any of our neighbours (but never deafed any of their eares with any of our supplications for assistance) shall we, I say, without blushing, abase our selves so farre, as to imitate these beastly Indians, slaves to the Spaniards, refuse to the world, and as yet aliens from the holy Covenant of God? Why doe we not as well imitate them in walking naked as they doe? in preferring glasses, feathers, and such toyes, to golde and precious stones, as they do? yea why do we not denie God and adore the Devill, as they doe? &#8221;</p>
<p>James I;  1604</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lesser Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-31998</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lesser Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 03:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-31998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is the possibility of exit that makes hierarchical solidarity tolerable and the threat of failure and disaster that gives it authority.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the possibility of exit that makes hierarchical solidarity tolerable and the threat of failure and disaster that gives it authority.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pseudo-chrysostom</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-31997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pseudo-chrysostom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 02:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-31997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[over extending metaphors is how one accesses greater wyrd. that which is above can only be contingently expressed from below.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>over extending metaphors is how one accesses greater wyrd. that which is above can only be contingently expressed from below.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mai La Dreapta</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-31985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mai La Dreapta]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 01:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-31985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re &quot;society&quot;, of course you&#039;re right. Societies rarely vanish entirely. I should have said &quot;the Cathedral&quot; and the social-political superstructures it inhabits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re &#8220;society&#8221;, of course you&#8217;re right. Societies rarely vanish entirely. I should have said &#8220;the Cathedral&#8221; and the social-political superstructures it inhabits.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-31982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Dec 2013 01:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-31982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just checking in.  Ran across the comments section on the Umlaut, and wanted to see what was up at xenosystems.    This semester got crazy and my reading went downhill.   I&#039;ll try and write some entertaining comments over the next month, it&#039;s winter break.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just checking in.  Ran across the comments section on the Umlaut, and wanted to see what was up at xenosystems.    This semester got crazy and my reading went downhill.   I&#8217;ll try and write some entertaining comments over the next month, it&#8217;s winter break.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Igitur</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/retro-dialectics/#comment-31980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Igitur]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Dec 2013 23:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1836#comment-31980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Welp, this is amazing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welp, this is amazing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
