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	<title>Comments on: Scrap note #8</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: excthedra</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[excthedra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 05:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Eriugena reformulates the Trinity as an explanation of how the indeterminate (i.e., unthinking, unknowable to itself) Absolute begets the Logos (and thereby also the primal causes, and then creation as theophany) as the first determination -- knowledge is the first limitation of divinity. Plotinus, and heterodox anti-Arians (such as Marius Victorinus), tread in similar waters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eriugena reformulates the Trinity as an explanation of how the indeterminate (i.e., unthinking, unknowable to itself) Absolute begets the Logos (and thereby also the primal causes, and then creation as theophany) as the first determination &#8212; knowledge is the first limitation of divinity. Plotinus, and heterodox anti-Arians (such as Marius Victorinus), tread in similar waters.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35762</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... some considerations of limits is good&quot; -- agreed, but if taken as an engrossing topic in itself, the consideration of limits does not itself have definite or unproblematic limits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; some considerations of limits is good&#8221; &#8212; agreed, but if taken as an engrossing topic in itself, the consideration of limits does not itself have definite or unproblematic limits.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;@admin&lt;/strong&gt;I guess my point was that some considerations of limits is good.  Anyone who has written a thesis has realized that they needed to focus a nebulous book-length concept into a 30 page laser beam.  Modesty is good in thought.  

Shunryu Suzuki: “In the beginner’s mind, there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s mind, there are few”. 

Mother Teresa: &quot;We can do no great things, only small things with great love.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@admin</strong>I guess my point was that some considerations of limits is good.  Anyone who has written a thesis has realized that they needed to focus a nebulous book-length concept into a 30 page laser beam.  Modesty is good in thought.  </p>
<p>Shunryu Suzuki: “In the beginner’s mind, there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s mind, there are few”. </p>
<p>Mother Teresa: &#8220;We can do no great things, only small things with great love.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: RiverC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RiverC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Axioms exist whether we wish them to or not. The question that remains is which Axioms and why; but when considering Axioms what Axioms would you use to construct your arguments for or against them? In what terms would you adjudge some superior while others inferior without reference to other Axioms? And if they can be actually reduced to other Axioms they are not Axioms and the real Axioms then are &#039;hidden&#039; while still acting.

One answer to this question seems to arise from the fact that Goods are intangible-tangibles; take one of the lowest of the goods, money. While money nearly always has physical manifestation, it need not, and it does not &#039;exist&#039; if there is not one to trade with. But yet it remains a good that constantly &#039;justifies&#039; itself due to its nature, by what it does because of what it is. 

I think the answer here is to take a rhetorical approach and 1.discover the goods, 2. arrange them in their proper order and 3. elucidate this order to the other (in this case, the machine.)

The second part is tricky; axioms usually follow a natural ordering (that is to say, like items in a database, their natural order is their order of coming into existence) but that natural ordering, being usually linear, does not constitute a hierarchy (take the ten commandments for instance; the first commandment is definitely the most important, but for the others their importance cannot be sussed out from their natural ordering.)

The ordering then must be determined by mapping to another &#039;kind&#039; of axiom, or another dimension of &#039;axiomality&#039; - if we are dealing with goods, we have two other dimensions; the beautiful, and the true. The ordering of these axioms shall thus not be self-referential and solipsistic, but in reference to the two other dimensions, of their relationship to truth, and their relationship to beauty.

(I apply computer science to the problem but that is only because computer science is one of the few philosophies with any precision left in its terminology. I disagree with the notion that applying computer science terminology is evidence of autism.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Axioms exist whether we wish them to or not. The question that remains is which Axioms and why; but when considering Axioms what Axioms would you use to construct your arguments for or against them? In what terms would you adjudge some superior while others inferior without reference to other Axioms? And if they can be actually reduced to other Axioms they are not Axioms and the real Axioms then are &#8216;hidden&#8217; while still acting.</p>
<p>One answer to this question seems to arise from the fact that Goods are intangible-tangibles; take one of the lowest of the goods, money. While money nearly always has physical manifestation, it need not, and it does not &#8216;exist&#8217; if there is not one to trade with. But yet it remains a good that constantly &#8216;justifies&#8217; itself due to its nature, by what it does because of what it is. </p>
<p>I think the answer here is to take a rhetorical approach and 1.discover the goods, 2. arrange them in their proper order and 3. elucidate this order to the other (in this case, the machine.)</p>
<p>The second part is tricky; axioms usually follow a natural ordering (that is to say, like items in a database, their natural order is their order of coming into existence) but that natural ordering, being usually linear, does not constitute a hierarchy (take the ten commandments for instance; the first commandment is definitely the most important, but for the others their importance cannot be sussed out from their natural ordering.)</p>
<p>The ordering then must be determined by mapping to another &#8216;kind&#8217; of axiom, or another dimension of &#8216;axiomality&#8217; &#8211; if we are dealing with goods, we have two other dimensions; the beautiful, and the true. The ordering of these axioms shall thus not be self-referential and solipsistic, but in reference to the two other dimensions, of their relationship to truth, and their relationship to beauty.</p>
<p>(I apply computer science to the problem but that is only because computer science is one of the few philosophies with any precision left in its terminology. I disagree with the notion that applying computer science terminology is evidence of autism.)</p>
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		<title>By: RiverC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RiverC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[among the Theologians (those with that title and not that profession) while God is the Logos, all things have their eternal origin in logoi, or ideas, in God. So all things are also &#039;logos&#039; (pattern) but not all things are rational (have rational souls.) In Christianity the question of whether God thinks or not has its tables overturned by the incarnation; if we are to use the generic &#039;does God think?&#039; just as &#039;can God create a rock he cannot lift?&#039; the answer is yes due to the godman. 

In Orthodox theologizing the term &#039;God&#039; is imprecise and requires further refinement. &#039;God&#039; either refers to one of the members of the Godhead, persons or hypostases, or to the divine nature itself (the godhood.) If we say &#039;does God think&#039; in reference to the godhood it&#039;s an absurd question equivalent to asking &#039;does the human nature think?&#039; The nature has capacities for sure but it does not act outside of an instance. 

The further refined question would be, &#039;does God the X think?&#039; Does the poet&#039;s reference to God&#039;s thought being above our thought imply that he thinks? To confound this further other theologians have said that our deliberation (most of what we consider rational thought) is not our natural mode but an accommodation we are capable not unlike your lower back overworking because your abdominal muscles are failing.

Also, our form of thought depends a lot on not seeing into things but seeing the surface of them and trying to figure out things about them. God has no such limitation, either way you look at it.

Finally, at least in the old psychology, thought refers not to logic or thought-in-words, but to the energy that arises from or around the heart which language is used to form into words so it can be transferred between beings via sound or writing. Emotion is a form of unformed thought. 

Therefore to even begin to answer the question would involve defining some terms. Given the ones I accept I would say that God thinks, but that God is not &#039;rational&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>among the Theologians (those with that title and not that profession) while God is the Logos, all things have their eternal origin in logoi, or ideas, in God. So all things are also &#8216;logos&#8217; (pattern) but not all things are rational (have rational souls.) In Christianity the question of whether God thinks or not has its tables overturned by the incarnation; if we are to use the generic &#8216;does God think?&#8217; just as &#8216;can God create a rock he cannot lift?&#8217; the answer is yes due to the godman. </p>
<p>In Orthodox theologizing the term &#8216;God&#8217; is imprecise and requires further refinement. &#8216;God&#8217; either refers to one of the members of the Godhead, persons or hypostases, or to the divine nature itself (the godhood.) If we say &#8216;does God think&#8217; in reference to the godhood it&#8217;s an absurd question equivalent to asking &#8216;does the human nature think?&#8217; The nature has capacities for sure but it does not act outside of an instance. </p>
<p>The further refined question would be, &#8216;does God the X think?&#8217; Does the poet&#8217;s reference to God&#8217;s thought being above our thought imply that he thinks? To confound this further other theologians have said that our deliberation (most of what we consider rational thought) is not our natural mode but an accommodation we are capable not unlike your lower back overworking because your abdominal muscles are failing.</p>
<p>Also, our form of thought depends a lot on not seeing into things but seeing the surface of them and trying to figure out things about them. God has no such limitation, either way you look at it.</p>
<p>Finally, at least in the old psychology, thought refers not to logic or thought-in-words, but to the energy that arises from or around the heart which language is used to form into words so it can be transferred between beings via sound or writing. Emotion is a form of unformed thought. </p>
<p>Therefore to even begin to answer the question would involve defining some terms. Given the ones I accept I would say that God thinks, but that God is not &#8216;rational&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d only want to complicate this by saying that thought can also fall into confusion when it attempts to determine its own limits. (Modified only slightly, this becomes a question about possible political constitutions ...)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d only want to complicate this by saying that thought can also fall into confusion when it attempts to determine its own limits. (Modified only slightly, this becomes a question about possible political constitutions &#8230;)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Another slice of horr[or]ism, IMO.&quot; -- which is unlikely to be a coincidence.

I think I agree with what you are saying here but, because I do not know, struggling to think further is unavoidable ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Another slice of horr[or]ism, IMO.&#8221; &#8212; which is unlikely to be a coincidence.</p>
<p>I think I agree with what you are saying here but, because I do not know, struggling to think further is unavoidable &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I suppose I’m with Mai la Dreapta.&quot; -- The same firm foundation, indeed. So my response to him transfers also perhaps to you -- Is a supreme &#039;being&#039; further exalted when it is not an abyss to itself?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I suppose I’m with Mai la Dreapta.&#8221; &#8212; The same firm foundation, indeed. So my response to him transfers also perhaps to you &#8212; Is a supreme &#8216;being&#8217; further exalted when it is not an abyss to itself?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The right of religion to bind philosophy is not settled (in the negative) by the fact it makes philosophers uncomfortable.

The argument you cite, however, is a far more interesting (and indeed thought-provoking) one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right of religion to bind philosophy is not settled (in the negative) by the fact it makes philosophers uncomfortable.</p>
<p>The argument you cite, however, is a far more interesting (and indeed thought-provoking) one.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/scrap-note-8/#comment-35735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=2239#comment-35735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.</p>
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