Strangeloop II

The Hacker News discussion thread on The Moldbug Affair is not to be missed. To call it ‘historic’ wouldn’t be (much of) and exaggeration. It’s well-worth a look just for the Urbit insights alone. In addition (and quite separately from the last point) ‘yarvin9’ pops up to make an impressive demonstration of not groveling to the mob. That, hopefully, could provide a model for the many others who will find themselves in analogous witch-trial hot-seats over the months and years to come.

A few highlights.

devalier , on Urbit:
It wasn’t the code itself that I learned from. I have more been enriched and stimulated by reading the blog posts, documentation, hacker news threads, and mailing list. A couple of the more interesting ideas are:
* He created Nock, which in a way is bytecode language, like compiled java bytecode or the .NET CIL. But his idea was that this bytecode should be the simplest possible thing, far, far simpler than the CLR. In fact, it should be versioned in Kelvin versioning, starting at 5,000 and counting down, until it is finally perfected and will never need to change. Going forward, all consumer apps will always compile down to this bytecode. All new hardware platforms can build interpreters for this bytecode. I think that is a pretty novel and neat approach. If it caught on, it would ensure that any program we wrote now could be run for the next thousand years.
* His view is that to beat spam, you simply need to have a finite number of cryptographically secured identities. This number can be large. But if it is finite, that means accounts will not be costless, which means the market over time will be able to solve the problems of trust and filtering out spam in a way far superior to how it works today.
It’s hard to do the ideas justice by trying to repeat them myself. In reading through the material it was just lots of little things, where I said to myself, “Ah, that is a neat solution to that problem, I wonder if he’ll be able to make it work.”

Quality sarcasm from 13thLetter:
What a crazy coincidence. This talk was accepted when nobody knew who Yarvin was, but now that you and your friends want to cast him out into the wilderness for disagreeing with your political opinions, all of a sudden you realize that the talk was technically uninteresting anyway. What are the odds, huh?

yarvin9 on racism:
I shouldn’t post as urbit. Quite a few other people, few of whom agree with me on anything, have worked on the project.
The word “racist” and its conjugations does not appear in the English language until the 1920s – see Peter Frost’s cultural history *. If you asked Shakespeare if he was a “racist,” he would not know what you meant.
“Racist” is essentially a term of abuse which no group or party has ever applied to itself. Like most such epithets, it has two meanings – a clear objective one, describing a person who fails to believe in the anthropological theories of human equality which became first popular, then universal in the mid-20th century; and a caricature of the vices, personal or political, typically engaged in by such a foul unbeliever.

[This non-apology under pressure is truly glorious]

topynate on the realistic micro-sociology of crimethink definition:
Kicking people from your tech conference because they were racist outside of it hands veto power to whoever determines what racism is and when something is ‘too racist’. The same goes for the other beyond-the-pale isms like sexism, fascism, etc.

paxdickinson on precedent:
It’ll be [Alex Miller’s] decision next time too. And now that the Red Guards know he’ll succumb to even the slightest bit of pressure, there will certainly be a next time.

convexfunction on prophecy:
It’s funny because he definitely saw this coming.

djur on “this is so … I can’t even …”
This is a core tenet of Moldbuggian neoreaction, that American and European politics are run by a “Cathedral” that adheres to communist beliefs. Claiming that mainstream political positions are communism is absolutely insane.

corporealist on perspective:
This guy is a rightwinger (outside of his industry) and somebody didn’t like it. What an embarrassment. They’re proving the right’s points.

ShardPhoenix on more perspective:
… socialism is much worse than racism. Socialism (actual socialism, not “social democracy” aka capitalist welfare state) destroys countries (eg North Korea), while racism is merely a moderate problem (eg South Korea is very racist but doing fine).

ADDED: So I guess the Streisand Effect really is a thing.

June 8, 2015admin 38 Comments »
FILED UNDER :Discriminations

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38 Responses to this entry

  • Nick B. Steves Says:

    This seems oddly appropriate…


    Hattori Reply:

    I doubt the inquisitors mind about the streisand effect that much. They know they are nearly immune to backlash at this point. Additionally, moderates will defend their right to exclude people from a private conference, missing the larger point.


    Michael Reply:

    can a muslim then be excluded ? oh yeah i forgot reason is fascist


    Hattori Reply:

    To a libertarian or Ancap he could be.

    Max Reply:

    “reason is fascist”

    You’re being sarcastic, but this is literally true.

    Nick B. Steves Reply:

    Of course the inquisitors are immune. Witch-hunting is a profitable and quite fashionable job. The streisanding is for Yarvin’s ideas. “Banned at Strange Loop” Wow… gotta see what that’s all about!


    Max Reply:

    It’s important to remember the reason Moldbug advocated passivism. It isn’t because things are fine and dandy and will work out in the end. It’s because we are few, and we are weak, and the many and strong will use their power to hurt us if we seem to pose even the slightest hint of a threat to their domination.

    This isn’t about morality/right or wrong – there’s no such thing. This is about darwinism. Ideas are selected for virulence, not accuracy. Ideas that drive the stupids into a frenzy for purging non-believers will propagate over time, while ideas that encourage people to see the world as it is will only spread if they do not get in the way of the first sort.

    To put it another way: Science is all well and good, but if it gets in the way of religion, it gets run over. Every. Single. Time. What’s happening here is just another example of that phenomenon.


    The International Community Reply:

    We should’ve hidden our shit somehow.

    E. Antony Gray (@RiverC) Reply:

    If it gets in the way of Power, you mean. Religion is about certain truths of the human condition – the need for sacrifice, for reconciliation to self, others, world, etc. Take the god-hood of the Roman emperor. This had nothing to do with genuine religion – superstitious or otherwise – but all to do with using religion for Power. They said, “Hey, see how religion binds people to the object of worship. We need to bind people to the emperor so they won’t rebel. Let’s make them worship the emperor” (inspired, supposedly, by the god-cult of the Pharoahs.)

    If you think this is the fault of religion, you’re simply looking at naked will-to-power wearing, presently, the skin of religion(s) – the farce that suited it well for awhile. But now it has found a better dress, if only it can preserve it after removing the living thing from it.

    The passivism is to be non-threatening or hard and irritating like a crab – so that Power passes you over looking for things to exploit / crush / eat. But it is also because the track record of violence aiding the buildup of the federal government – essentially a major element of the Cathedral – is 100% (or so close as to be trivial.)

    “darwinism” must be about ultimate truths or there is no point in not joining the Cathedral. It is, after all, the strong horse at the moment. Or is there something other than pure virality?

    Max Reply:

    “‘darwinism’ must be about ultimate truths or there is no point in not joining the Cathedral.”

    Darwinism is not about ultimate truths. I have joined the Cathedral.

    vxxc2014 Reply:

    To speak the Truth when it doesn’t cost you much – life and liberty are much, not some silly nerd conference – is the least one can do. These are his ideas and they influenced others, he can defend them.

    He’s actually holding up better than I expected.

    Passivism is death. Passivism is past cowardice, a coward might live another day and survive. The passivist has no shelter in nature or in this world, and I doubt God has any place for such in the next.

    Even bugs defend themselves.

    There’s no point in groveling before the genocidal, so stop advocating it.

    I’m heartened that both Moldbug and to a certain extent Pax D. are defending themselves and the ideas here…

    Passive people had best be silent. You have no future and in history no past.

    Devalier Reply:

    I don’t think the Streisand effect works for the far-right. The reach of the left on twitter far outweighs our reach. So people won’t hear about this guy who was banned and be curious. They’ll just see some leftist summary of the event with his most infamous quotes cherry-picked. Then the neutral bystander will say, Geez, this guy seems like a real racist creep and they will move on. Then every time moldbug or urbit comes up in the future, they’ll think, wasn’t that this project by that racist dude? And then they will ignore him and move on. Rather than serving our cause, this just stimulates the memetic immune system of the left to generate antibodies against moldbug.

    This will also be bad for moldbug personally. The more leftists know about him, the more they will attack any venture capitalist that funds him, any conference that has him speak. If you really want to go to war on twitter for moldbug, you should email him first and ask him if he wants you stirring up the hornets nest on his behalf.


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 1:34 pm Reply | Quote
  • Michael Says:

    redistributing status and the wealth that goes with it seems so much more reasonable its not Communism its just anti racism.
    i would think Mcarthyism would make the point better even if MM used Brown, but of course thats complicated since Mcarthy was right. Have you noticed no one uses Mcarthyism anymore like five years ago it just disappeared just about the rime hate speak laws began to be talked about.


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 2:26 pm Reply | Quote
  • Michael Says:

    from MM
    #BrownScare? are you guys on this looks like fun


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 2:28 pm Reply | Quote
  • Mark Citadel Says:

    “This talk was accepted when nobody knew who Yarvin was, but now that you and your friends want to cast him out into the wilderness for disagreeing with your political opinions, all of a sudden you realize that the talk was technically uninteresting anyway. What are the odds, huh?”

    Extremely reminiscent of the Hugo debacle with Vox Day. They pull the same formulaic crap each time.


    E. Antony Gray (@RiverC) Reply:

    It is always the case that a given author – even a good author – is not going to be 100% mindblowing insights. It’s convenient, for when you decide to politically sideline them, you can always say, “Well, really their stuff wasn’t that interesting.” Urbit isn’t going to use tech to end world hunger. Who cares.


    Mark Citadel Reply:

    Of course, the conference itself is of no importance, and I think by banning him, they have caused a domino Streisand effect. However, just read some of the comments by these Modernist troglodytes…

    “Moldbug is a Nazi! ZOMG!” Can tech even survive with these kind of nimrods infesting the industry? And apparently his presence would trigger microaggressions or some other hocus pocus pseudo-bulls*** against the black people who will be at Urbit. Affirmative Action for the digital age!

    I especially liked one commenter who said “We all know slavery is always wrong. Liberals are not concerned with fighting battles where the loser has already been declared”

    “Encourage your enemy’s arrogance” – Sun Tzu. These people live as arrogant fools, and will no doubt die as arrogant fools. By half way through this century, I am confident they will have lost everything.


    Max Reply:

    “By half way through this century, I am confident they will have lost everything.”

    That’s because your brain evolved to prevent you from plunging into the pits of despair, nihilism, and suicide.

    Your confidence is misplaced. This was never going to end well.

    Mark Citadel Reply:

    No one said it was going to end well, but it will end. What is there to fear from the end? Disaster? Famine? War? Death? Such things have never preyed upon my mind. If we are to end as Aleksandr Dugin predicts, in the ultimate termination of human existence, then so be it. Small price to pay with eternity in mind.

    E. Antony Gray (@RiverC) Reply:

    Yes, they will. But the real question is, what else will be lost in the process? That is what is at stake.

    Michael Reply:

    you know back when i thought socialism was the menace i thought hey its gonna collapse one day it just cant go on, then i saw they were involving everyone in the money printing even communist china and i realized they will never financially collapse because no country on earth will allow it banksters will have no where to hide [not that there wasnt a gun to their heads] all that will happen is ill wake up one morning and be told my accounts have been converted into a nifty new digital currency and theres gonna be a slight recession so dont be concerned about the military presence on the corners.I dont know maybe somehow they could collapse but i doubt it but it doesnt matter by then my people my civilization will be gone so who cares

    E. Antony Gray (@RiverC) Reply:

    Despair does not suit you.

    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 3:27 pm Reply | Quote
  • village idiot Says:

    “Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, anonymous networks, digital
    pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations, information markets, black
    markets, collapse of governments.”
    — Tim May


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 4:15 pm Reply | Quote
  • Strangeloop II | Reaction Times Says:

    […] Source: Outside In […]

    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 5:28 pm Reply | Quote
  • Mechanomica Says:

    “…an impressive demonstration of not groveling to the mob.”

    This is key. Too many people panic in this position and think a false apology will take the heat off their backs when in fact it produces the opposite effect.

    The air of unflappable maturity and self-sufficiency he’s displaying helps a lot. You can make people back off by acting defensive and enraged, too, but most can sense the underlying fear and neediness behind that stance and they won’t respect you for it over the long-term. This is a tendency men who were bullied or socially rejected in adolescence need to watch out for and, if possible, uproot. Raise your hackles before the enemy too soon and you may as well fax them your therapy transcripts while you’re at it.


    vxxc2014 Reply:

    He’s right.

    Look ’em in the eye and state your case coldly and matter of fact.

    That’s confrontation stage after the punk and his friends approach.

    As in Sales the first one to talk loses…

    The punk will try you then back down with conversation when he meets steel.

    True of verbal altercations as well as physical.

    Although mind you…any resistance including loud talk is better than nothing.


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 5:30 pm Reply | Quote
  • Michael Says:

    they do sort of prove religion needn’t be gnostic esoteric occult or supernatural.and while they are irrational i dont see any proof its a requirement. I think chritianity as a proxy for religion in neoreaction is a mistake look how it turned out for conservatives. what does seem to be a requirement of a religion?


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 8:21 pm Reply | Quote
  • Hattori Says:

    Also memorable, If you go to that thread and CTRL+F search for Yarvin9 you shouldn’t miss his post on South Africa. It’s like an extremely condensed version of the moldbug experience in a few paragraphs.


    Posted on June 8th, 2015 at 9:24 pm Reply | Quote
  • cryptael Says:

    Interesting offer to recant

    > “He has literally written that several of his co-speakers are genetically more fit to be slaves while he, a white male, is genetically designed to be a master.”

    Certainly a powerful use of the word literally.

    Frankly, I’m actually considering recanting. Who wouldn’t rather be Galileo than Giordano Bruno? But recanting is a serious matter – it’s the sort of thing you need to get right the first time.

    To appear at future conferences without my fellow speakers worrying that I’ll enslave them or kick off Holocaust 2.0, it’d be ideal if someone can tell me what I have to believe. I’m guessing it’s either:

    (a) all human beings are born with identical talents and inclinations.

    (b) human beings may be born with different talents and inclinations, but these talents and inclinations are distributed identically across all living populations.

    Let’s face it, Strange Loop is an awesome conference – there’s a reason I applied. And I think Alex’s decision is totally understandable for practical reasons, as someone downthread explains. If there’s a chance of being invited back next year, I could totally go for (b). But if it has to be (a), I might still be all “e pur si muove” and stuff.


    Blogospheroid Reply:

    It was very formalist, the offer. Unfortunately, there is no pope of the cathedral who can get MM out of purgatory, because the moment she did, another radical would show up screaming BETRAYAL and be well on her way to becoming the new pope.


    Posted on June 9th, 2015 at 12:20 am Reply | Quote
  • Michael Says:

    here mencius yeah that one commenting before he had a blog on Leni Riefenstahl

    Any rational moral condemnation of anyone who supported or empowered Nazism or racism has to include Communism as well. There is no way at all to conclude that either of these ideologies is more murderous than the other. And you could throw in the Jacobins for free, too – and how about Napoleon?

    But if you apply this test you wind up throwing out 3/4 of the writers and artists of the last two centuries. If this had a point, it’s not really clear what it would be. So why do we still need to perform these ritual kowtows to anti-Nazi McCarthyism? Carleton Putnam is interesting reading, too…

    Charlton, thanks for that link – I’m always looking to add to my Hitler Studies shelf, appall though it does my girlfriend…
    Posted by: Mencius on March 15, 2007 7:19 PM


    Posted on June 9th, 2015 at 3:54 am Reply | Quote
  • low income low status low brow juvenile reader Says:

    er, uh, what?


    Posted on June 9th, 2015 at 11:49 am Reply | Quote
  • Brett Stevens Says:

    Amazing that Hacker News, a heavily censored SJW community, even let that through.


    Posted on June 9th, 2015 at 1:42 pm Reply | Quote
  • The history of “racism” Says:

    […] (as quoted in Non-Hacker News via Outside In) […]

    Posted on June 9th, 2015 at 2:45 pm Reply | Quote
  • vxxc2014 Says:

    @michael no caps or puncuation

    Knock that shit off.

    Because this is a win for the Right, White, sanity and yes our feckking people.

    and even if it was a loss – and it’s a win – so fekking what?

    You know we don’t lay down and fucking die or we wouldn’t be here.

    PS – administrative Irish note – the Irish are extremely dark and melancholic, michael and his race [mine-Irish] are best in hot water and not when it’s before and we can see the boiling pot.

    seriously mike stop that geeba shite right now.

    Because fucking Gimli skinny or not just blew the fucking horn of Helm Hammerhand in the Deep.

    Oh and remember who turned their backs spontaneously in December in the Emergency room. If the NYPD including the wops, gooks, PRs, and spics and yes blacks were anymore Irish the Taiosheach would stamp their passports.

    that was GOD mike. America doesn’t deserve it, but we got it anyway.


    Posted on June 10th, 2015 at 11:15 am Reply | Quote
  • Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or #Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin) | Popehat Says:

    […] (2) […]

    Posted on June 10th, 2015 at 7:05 pm Reply | Quote
  • This Week in Reaction (2015/06/14) | The Reactivity Place Says:

    […] Land has Strangeloop II with some choice tidbits of this Y-combinator thread, which features several of the major parties […]

    Posted on June 17th, 2015 at 3:11 pm Reply | Quote

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