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	<title>Comments on: The Heat Trap</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Jozsef</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jozsef]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Nov 2013 05:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Xeno Systems, this is very interesting.  You are right about the raw severity of the dilation of the conditions of life themselves with human perturbation of those conditions, but raw or absolute severity isn&#039;t the point.  What you potentially underestimate is the capacity of even short term perturbation to have cascading impacts on the possibility space of the potential of reason with respect to mapping escape vectors in the longer term.  In other words, yes in representational physical-cosmological time the period of AGW dwarfs the time until biosphere extinction due to this compensatory mechanism, but this ratio of two bare physical time durations in itself tells us nothing.  Given, as you talk about elsewhere, the telescoping intensification of cybenetic processes, we are in an area of unprecedented stochasticity-- we can&#039;t rule out that this short period of time might have large consequences with regards to escape.  What happens to humans in the short term can affect what happens to the trajectories of intelligence and it&#039;s possibility for mapping escape in the longer term, considering that human driven assemblages are the currently only bearers of reason in town (and yes, it&#039;s human driven, and no this is not anthropocentric, just a counterfactual realization -- delete humans, then what happens to the technosystems?: they stop doing anything except for falling apart).  We can&#039;t attach probabilities to things like this, and thus can&#039;t write off the importance of or effects of AGW with regards to longer term events.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xeno Systems, this is very interesting.  You are right about the raw severity of the dilation of the conditions of life themselves with human perturbation of those conditions, but raw or absolute severity isn&#8217;t the point.  What you potentially underestimate is the capacity of even short term perturbation to have cascading impacts on the possibility space of the potential of reason with respect to mapping escape vectors in the longer term.  In other words, yes in representational physical-cosmological time the period of AGW dwarfs the time until biosphere extinction due to this compensatory mechanism, but this ratio of two bare physical time durations in itself tells us nothing.  Given, as you talk about elsewhere, the telescoping intensification of cybenetic processes, we are in an area of unprecedented stochasticity&#8211; we can&#8217;t rule out that this short period of time might have large consequences with regards to escape.  What happens to humans in the short term can affect what happens to the trajectories of intelligence and it&#8217;s possibility for mapping escape in the longer term, considering that human driven assemblages are the currently only bearers of reason in town (and yes, it&#8217;s human driven, and no this is not anthropocentric, just a counterfactual realization &#8212; delete humans, then what happens to the technosystems?: they stop doing anything except for falling apart).  We can&#8217;t attach probabilities to things like this, and thus can&#8217;t write off the importance of or effects of AGW with regards to longer term events.</p>
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		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Nov 2013 13:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@admin:

1.  That might be some reason to doubt Cambrian bioproductivity estimates

2.  In the alternative, a huge part of the Northern hemisphere is unproductive most of the year, either Arctic or Desert.  A warmer Arctic and a wetter desert (without equal trade-offs elsewhere) would give a giant boost to net bioproductivity.

3.  The main protein involved in carbon capture is RuBisCO (&#039;The most abundant protein on earth&#039; - much of the whole biosphere is made of RuBisCO and Cellulose).  The genetics of RuBisCO haven&#039;t changed much in many millions of years, but it is indeed the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBisCO#Genetic_engineering&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;subject of current investigations in genetic engineering&lt;/a&gt;.  But if there were easy win modifications, you&#039;d think nature would have found them.  La Wik, &quot;Some enzymes can carry out thousands of chemical reactions each second. However, RuBisCO is slow, being able to fix only 3-10 carbon dioxide molecules each second per molecule of enzyme.&quot;  

Also, CO2 enrichment has been used as a technique for a century, and, unlike with synthetic fixed-nitrogen,  &#039;green-revolution&#039;-style horticultural efforts to create hybrids and new breeds that can make use of much higher levels of CO2 have not been ... ahem ... borne much fruit.

Like all catalytic enzymes, it has a certain reaction rate of chemical process, and a range of ideal concentration in chloroplasts.  At optimal concentration, and given exogenous atmospheric temperature and pressure, the overall rate of photosynthesis is dependent on the concentration of the precursors.  But plants will occasionally close their stomas to slow down photosynthesis even below this point because, by letting more CO2 in, they are letting too much moisture out.  In a greenhouse you can keep them at maximum healthy hydration so they keep their stomas fully open all the time.

4.  The other issue with RuBisCO is that its process reacts with ambient oxygen levels that are much, much higher than when photosynthesis evolved (indeed, are much higher &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; of a billion years of photosynthesis.)  La Wik, &quot;Thus, the inability of the enzyme to prevent the reaction with oxygen greatly reduces the photosynthetic capacity of many plants.&quot;  Some call this &#039;oxygen poisoning&#039; or &#039;oxygen toxicity&#039;.

So you can squeeze some additional productivity of (a few) plants and other photosynthesizing critters like algae if you reduce the oxygen levels a bit and keep them low (but not too low).  Obviously this this is much more capital intensive than merely raising CO2 levels.  Even if you close off the outside air, raising CO2 levels by 300% only reduces O2 levels by 0.5% - which is negligible.  You need electricity-hog membrane filters, and now you&#039;ve created an environment unsafe for humans or, more importantly, pollinating insects.  

The only people who do anything like that now (and on the smallest scales) are pharmaceutical companies and, of course, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-17352173&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the highest ends of the Japanese ultra-premium fruit market&lt;/a&gt;.

Though, for people who grow in their basements without bees, you can pollinate on your own with a q-tip attached to an electric toothbrush or flosser, which is very boring, time-consuming, and labor-intensive.  (One of the major problems with trying to grow food in space if you don&#039;t bring bugs (and everything else they need) with you).  But, in the near future, I can easily envision this monotonous task being automated and conducted by robots who don&#039;t need oxygen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@admin:</p>
<p>1.  That might be some reason to doubt Cambrian bioproductivity estimates</p>
<p>2.  In the alternative, a huge part of the Northern hemisphere is unproductive most of the year, either Arctic or Desert.  A warmer Arctic and a wetter desert (without equal trade-offs elsewhere) would give a giant boost to net bioproductivity.</p>
<p>3.  The main protein involved in carbon capture is RuBisCO (&#8216;The most abundant protein on earth&#8217; &#8211; much of the whole biosphere is made of RuBisCO and Cellulose).  The genetics of RuBisCO haven&#8217;t changed much in many millions of years, but it is indeed the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBisCO#Genetic_engineering" rel="nofollow">subject of current investigations in genetic engineering</a>.  But if there were easy win modifications, you&#8217;d think nature would have found them.  La Wik, &#8220;Some enzymes can carry out thousands of chemical reactions each second. However, RuBisCO is slow, being able to fix only 3-10 carbon dioxide molecules each second per molecule of enzyme.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Also, CO2 enrichment has been used as a technique for a century, and, unlike with synthetic fixed-nitrogen,  &#8216;green-revolution&#8217;-style horticultural efforts to create hybrids and new breeds that can make use of much higher levels of CO2 have not been &#8230; ahem &#8230; borne much fruit.</p>
<p>Like all catalytic enzymes, it has a certain reaction rate of chemical process, and a range of ideal concentration in chloroplasts.  At optimal concentration, and given exogenous atmospheric temperature and pressure, the overall rate of photosynthesis is dependent on the concentration of the precursors.  But plants will occasionally close their stomas to slow down photosynthesis even below this point because, by letting more CO2 in, they are letting too much moisture out.  In a greenhouse you can keep them at maximum healthy hydration so they keep their stomas fully open all the time.</p>
<p>4.  The other issue with RuBisCO is that its process reacts with ambient oxygen levels that are much, much higher than when photosynthesis evolved (indeed, are much higher <i>because</i> of a billion years of photosynthesis.)  La Wik, &#8220;Thus, the inability of the enzyme to prevent the reaction with oxygen greatly reduces the photosynthetic capacity of many plants.&#8221;  Some call this &#8216;oxygen poisoning&#8217; or &#8216;oxygen toxicity&#8217;.</p>
<p>So you can squeeze some additional productivity of (a few) plants and other photosynthesizing critters like algae if you reduce the oxygen levels a bit and keep them low (but not too low).  Obviously this this is much more capital intensive than merely raising CO2 levels.  Even if you close off the outside air, raising CO2 levels by 300% only reduces O2 levels by 0.5% &#8211; which is negligible.  You need electricity-hog membrane filters, and now you&#8217;ve created an environment unsafe for humans or, more importantly, pollinating insects.  </p>
<p>The only people who do anything like that now (and on the smallest scales) are pharmaceutical companies and, of course, <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-17352173" rel="nofollow">the highest ends of the Japanese ultra-premium fruit market</a>.</p>
<p>Though, for people who grow in their basements without bees, you can pollinate on your own with a q-tip attached to an electric toothbrush or flosser, which is very boring, time-consuming, and labor-intensive.  (One of the major problems with trying to grow food in space if you don&#8217;t bring bugs (and everything else they need) with you).  But, in the near future, I can easily envision this monotonous task being automated and conducted by robots who don&#8217;t need oxygen.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, speculation can quickly become entirely undisciplined. Best, at least initially, to assume some kind of recognizable eco-preservation is under discussion, in order to connect to the conversations that are already taking place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, speculation can quickly become entirely undisciplined. Best, at least initially, to assume some kind of recognizable eco-preservation is under discussion, in order to connect to the conversations that are already taking place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pseudo-chrysostom</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27153</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pseudo-chrysostom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Oct 2013 05:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27153</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[if keeping the ecosystem as such isint the goal, then there are plenty of potential options for adaptation, even more if simply hosting consciousnesses is the goal. not like we wont want to be adapting things in the future anyways.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if keeping the ecosystem as such isint the goal, then there are plenty of potential options for adaptation, even more if simply hosting consciousnesses is the goal. not like we wont want to be adapting things in the future anyways.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27146</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Handle -- thanks for the data. I&#039;m not sufficiently competent at biochemistry to guess, but is it possible that the relatively low level of CO2 absorption you&#039;ve noticed is due to plant adaptation to a low CO2 atmosphere? That&#039;s to say, is this maximum biochemical-physiological in a strong sense, or is it a contingent evolutionary fact? (The reason for asking, of course, is to get a sense of the probability that bio-engineered crops could exploit a &#039;richer&#039; atmosphere, or whether bio-productivity climaxes around the limit you suggest.) 

It seems strange that bio-productivity has fallen so drastically since the Cambrian if CO2 levels are only 75% below an optimum level.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Handle &#8212; thanks for the data. I&#8217;m not sufficiently competent at biochemistry to guess, but is it possible that the relatively low level of CO2 absorption you&#8217;ve noticed is due to plant adaptation to a low CO2 atmosphere? That&#8217;s to say, is this maximum biochemical-physiological in a strong sense, or is it a contingent evolutionary fact? (The reason for asking, of course, is to get a sense of the probability that bio-engineered crops could exploit a &#8216;richer&#8217; atmosphere, or whether bio-productivity climaxes around the limit you suggest.) </p>
<p>It seems strange that bio-productivity has fallen so drastically since the Cambrian if CO2 levels are only 75% below an optimum level.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27142</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;...(at least two orders of magnitude above the present level) ...&#039;

I used to grow tomatoes and occasionally some other plants (legal ones) in a small, enclosed greenhouse with a small gas-burning unit that produced heat, moisture, and CO2.  Ideal CO2 levels for most plants was between double and quadruple ambient levels (now about 400ppm, so ideal between 800-1600ppm).  After that, and even with ideal lighting and nutrients, you simply reach the biochemical limits of photosynthesis rates.

On the other hand, most animals including humans can go up to 10,000 ppm with no apparent effect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;&#8230;(at least two orders of magnitude above the present level) &#8230;&#8217;</p>
<p>I used to grow tomatoes and occasionally some other plants (legal ones) in a small, enclosed greenhouse with a small gas-burning unit that produced heat, moisture, and CO2.  Ideal CO2 levels for most plants was between double and quadruple ambient levels (now about 400ppm, so ideal between 800-1600ppm).  After that, and even with ideal lighting and nutrients, you simply reach the biochemical limits of photosynthesis rates.</p>
<p>On the other hand, most animals including humans can go up to 10,000 ppm with no apparent effect.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Oct 2013 03:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s an impressively ambitious solution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an impressively ambitious solution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Oct 2013 03:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks -- supremely fascinating references.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks &#8212; supremely fascinating references.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Oct 2013 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s the cooling part that is difficult. The biosphere killer is long-term heating (which almost any kind of &#039;anthropocene&#039; development will exacerbate -- activity heats things up). The point of this post, is that cooling through CO2 reduction is a truly horrible solution, but apparently the only one &#039;Gaia&#039; had available. Escaping the terrestrial thermic death-trap requires an alternative cooling solution, such that atmospheric CO2 could be restored to healthy levels (at least two orders of magnitude above the present level), Bioproductivity would then be vastly improved -- reversing half a billion years of decline.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the cooling part that is difficult. The biosphere killer is long-term heating (which almost any kind of &#8216;anthropocene&#8217; development will exacerbate &#8212; activity heats things up). The point of this post, is that cooling through CO2 reduction is a truly horrible solution, but apparently the only one &#8216;Gaia&#8217; had available. Escaping the terrestrial thermic death-trap requires an alternative cooling solution, such that atmospheric CO2 could be restored to healthy levels (at least two orders of magnitude above the present level), Bioproductivity would then be vastly improved &#8212; reversing half a billion years of decline.</p>
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		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-heat-trap/#comment-27106</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Oct 2013 02:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1508#comment-27106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s easy to put more CO2 in the atmosphere, isn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s easy to put more CO2 in the atmosphere, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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