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	<title>Comments on: The Monkey Trap</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Deep Ruin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-75515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Deep Ruin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2014 15:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-75515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] of fate. Ruins deride hubristic pretensions. They mark an ineluctable compliance with the Old Law of [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] of fate. Ruins deride hubristic pretensions. They mark an ineluctable compliance with the Old Law of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sub-Cognitive Fragments (#2)</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-35327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Outside in - Involvements with reality &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sub-Cognitive Fragments (#2)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2014 14:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-35327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] we stupid? Oh yes, of that we can be fully confident. The Old Law of Gnon ensures to a very high level of probability that any creature considering itself part of an intelligent [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] we stupid? Oh yes, of that we can be fully confident. The Old Law of Gnon ensures to a very high level of probability that any creature considering itself part of an intelligent [&#8230;]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Neoreactionary Canon &#124; More Right</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-33854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neoreactionary Canon &#124; More Right]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2014 22:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-33854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] The Monkey Trap [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Monkey Trap [&#8230;]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Announcing: The Neoreactionary Canon! &#124; This Rough Beast</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-33439</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Announcing: The Neoreactionary Canon! &#124; This Rough Beast]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2014 19:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-33439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] The Monkey Trap [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Monkey Trap [&#8230;]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fotrkd</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-32466</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fotrkd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-32466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hierarchy is ingrained in Gnon. Beyond the moral slough (of despond) lies the Old Law which we are pragmatically bound to (out of existential necessity). The tree of knowledge is the one excess in Eden - it points to the way out. Work towards the eradication of the Old Law (rather than burying it in history)... before we all blow ourselves up?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hierarchy is ingrained in Gnon. Beyond the moral slough (of despond) lies the Old Law which we are pragmatically bound to (out of existential necessity). The tree of knowledge is the one excess in Eden &#8211; it points to the way out. Work towards the eradication of the Old Law (rather than burying it in history)&#8230; before we all blow ourselves up?</p>
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		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-11308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VXXC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Sep 2013 20:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-11308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ jack Crassus,

Every time you use the Dole Card in the US a small slice goes to the Financial Sector.  Goldman is food stamps for instance.    So the geeks you refer to are not that dumb, a guaranteed income is a guaranteed profitable career for said geek.   

That&#039;s in line with post-work guaranteed income, that is to say the nationalization of our 401Ks.    Called GRA.
Guaranteed Retirement Annuity.   Don&#039;t worry it&#039;s backed by Treasury Bonds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jack Crassus,</p>
<p>Every time you use the Dole Card in the US a small slice goes to the Financial Sector.  Goldman is food stamps for instance.    So the geeks you refer to are not that dumb, a guaranteed income is a guaranteed profitable career for said geek.   </p>
<p>That&#8217;s in line with post-work guaranteed income, that is to say the nationalization of our 401Ks.    Called GRA.<br />
Guaranteed Retirement Annuity.   Don&#8217;t worry it&#8217;s backed by Treasury Bonds.</p>
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		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-11300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VXXC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Sep 2013 18:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-11300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This argument about having children [which I favor] but stopping there...and letting them work it out...

&quot;Let there not be trouble in my time, but in my children&#039;s and preferably great grand children&#039;s.  &quot;

well.

You can eliminate the useful parts of psychopathic then... like no fuck around courage git er done. 

Normally most people who are enslaved or have lost their will to live in a manner they can stand stop having kids.
For instance in many Muslim households especially Sunni it&#039;s a pig stye  There&#039;s a reason - there&#039;s no percentage in the women cleaning up.   You&#039;ll never hear the laughter of women from them either....really...you notice when you return amongst ours. 

My progeny will be degraded slaves.  I think I&#039;ll have more.  

Psychopathic isn&#039;t the right term.  NOPE.     Take the Hare test.   You&#039;ll FAIL.  No kidding.  

Hell that attitude you&#039;ll fail the monkey tests.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This argument about having children [which I favor] but stopping there&#8230;and letting them work it out&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Let there not be trouble in my time, but in my children&#8217;s and preferably great grand children&#8217;s.  &#8221;</p>
<p>well.</p>
<p>You can eliminate the useful parts of psychopathic then&#8230; like no fuck around courage git er done. </p>
<p>Normally most people who are enslaved or have lost their will to live in a manner they can stand stop having kids.<br />
For instance in many Muslim households especially Sunni it&#8217;s a pig stye  There&#8217;s a reason &#8211; there&#8217;s no percentage in the women cleaning up.   You&#8217;ll never hear the laughter of women from them either&#8230;.really&#8230;you notice when you return amongst ours. </p>
<p>My progeny will be degraded slaves.  I think I&#8217;ll have more.  </p>
<p>Psychopathic isn&#8217;t the right term.  NOPE.     Take the Hare test.   You&#8217;ll FAIL.  No kidding.  </p>
<p>Hell that attitude you&#8217;ll fail the monkey tests.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fotrkd</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-11297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fotrkd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Sep 2013 16:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-11297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole conversation keeps reminding me of the final chapter of &lt;i&gt;A Clockwork Orange&lt;/i&gt; (UK version only):

&lt;i&gt;Perhaps that was it, I kept thinking. Perhaps I was getting too old for the sort of jeezny I had been leading, brothers. I was eighteen now, just gone. Eighteen was not a young age. At eighteen old Wolfgang Amadeus had written concertos and symphonies and operas and oratorios and all that cal, no, not cal, heavenly music. And then there was old Felix M. with his Midsummer Night&#039;s Dream Overture. And there were others. And there was this like French poet set by old Benjy Britt, who had done all his best poetry by the age of fifteen, O my brothers. Arthur, his first name. Eighteen was not all that young an age, then. But what was I going to do?

Walking the dark chill bastards of winter streets after ittying off from this chai and coffee mesto, I kept viddying like visions, like these cartoons in the gazettas. There was Your Humble Narrator Alex coming home from work to a good hot plate of dinner, and there was this ptitsa all welcoming and greeting like loving. But I could not viddy her all that horrorshow, brothers, I could not think who it might be. But I had this sudden very strong idea that if I walked into the room next to this room where the fire was burning away and my hot dinner laid on the table, there I should find what I really wanted, and now it all tied up, that picture scissored out of the gazetta and meeting old Pete like that. For in that other room in a cot was laying gurgling goo goo goo my son. Yes yes yes, brothers, my son. And now I felt this bolshy big hollow inside my plott, feeling very surprised too at myself. I knew what was happening, O my brothers. I was like growing up.

Yes yes yes, there it was. Youth must go, ah yes. But youth is only being in a way like it might be an animal. No, it is not just being an animal so much as being like one of these malenky toys you viddy being sold in the streets, like little chellovecks made out of tin and with a spring inside and then a winding handle on the outside and you wind it up grrr grrr grrr and off it itties, like walking, O my brothers. But it itties in a straight line and bangs straight into things bang bang and it cannot help what it is doing. Being young is like being like one of these malenky machines.

My son, my son. When I had my son I would explain all that to him when he was starry enough to like understand. But then I knew he would not understand or would not want to understand at all and would do all the veshches I had done, yes perhaps even killing some poor starry forella surrounded with mewing kots and koshkas, and I would not be able to really stop him. And nor would he be able to stop his own son, brothers. And so it would itty on to like the end of the world, round and round and round, like some bolshy gigantic like chelloveck, like old Bog Himself (by courtesy of Korova Milkbar) turning and turning and turning a vonny grahzny orange in his gigantic rookers.

But first of all, brothers, there was this veshch of finding some devotchka or other who would be a mother to this son. I would have to start on that tomorrow, I kept thinking. That was something like new to do. That was something I would have to get started on, a new like chapter beginning.

That&#039;s what it&#039;s going to be then, brothers, as I come to the like end of this tale. You have been everywhere with your little droog Alex, suffering with him, and you have viddied some of the most grahzny bratchnies old Bog ever made, all on to your old droog Alex. And all it was was that I was young. But now as I end this story, brothers, I am not young, not no longer, oh no. Alex like groweth up, oh yes.

But where I itty now, O my brothers, is all on my oddy knocky, where you cannot go. Tomorrow is all like sweet flowers and the turning vonny earth and the stars and the old Luna up there and your old droog Alex all on his oddy knocky seeking like a mate. And all that cal. A terrible grahzny vonny world, really, O my brothers. And so farewell from your little droog. And to all others in this story profound shooms of lip-music brrrrr. And they can kiss my sharries. But you, O my brothers, remember sometimes thy little Alex that was. Amen. And all that cal.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole conversation keeps reminding me of the final chapter of <i>A Clockwork Orange</i> (UK version only):</p>
<p><i>Perhaps that was it, I kept thinking. Perhaps I was getting too old for the sort of jeezny I had been leading, brothers. I was eighteen now, just gone. Eighteen was not a young age. At eighteen old Wolfgang Amadeus had written concertos and symphonies and operas and oratorios and all that cal, no, not cal, heavenly music. And then there was old Felix M. with his Midsummer Night&#8217;s Dream Overture. And there were others. And there was this like French poet set by old Benjy Britt, who had done all his best poetry by the age of fifteen, O my brothers. Arthur, his first name. Eighteen was not all that young an age, then. But what was I going to do?</p>
<p>Walking the dark chill bastards of winter streets after ittying off from this chai and coffee mesto, I kept viddying like visions, like these cartoons in the gazettas. There was Your Humble Narrator Alex coming home from work to a good hot plate of dinner, and there was this ptitsa all welcoming and greeting like loving. But I could not viddy her all that horrorshow, brothers, I could not think who it might be. But I had this sudden very strong idea that if I walked into the room next to this room where the fire was burning away and my hot dinner laid on the table, there I should find what I really wanted, and now it all tied up, that picture scissored out of the gazetta and meeting old Pete like that. For in that other room in a cot was laying gurgling goo goo goo my son. Yes yes yes, brothers, my son. And now I felt this bolshy big hollow inside my plott, feeling very surprised too at myself. I knew what was happening, O my brothers. I was like growing up.</p>
<p>Yes yes yes, there it was. Youth must go, ah yes. But youth is only being in a way like it might be an animal. No, it is not just being an animal so much as being like one of these malenky toys you viddy being sold in the streets, like little chellovecks made out of tin and with a spring inside and then a winding handle on the outside and you wind it up grrr grrr grrr and off it itties, like walking, O my brothers. But it itties in a straight line and bangs straight into things bang bang and it cannot help what it is doing. Being young is like being like one of these malenky machines.</p>
<p>My son, my son. When I had my son I would explain all that to him when he was starry enough to like understand. But then I knew he would not understand or would not want to understand at all and would do all the veshches I had done, yes perhaps even killing some poor starry forella surrounded with mewing kots and koshkas, and I would not be able to really stop him. And nor would he be able to stop his own son, brothers. And so it would itty on to like the end of the world, round and round and round, like some bolshy gigantic like chelloveck, like old Bog Himself (by courtesy of Korova Milkbar) turning and turning and turning a vonny grahzny orange in his gigantic rookers.</p>
<p>But first of all, brothers, there was this veshch of finding some devotchka or other who would be a mother to this son. I would have to start on that tomorrow, I kept thinking. That was something like new to do. That was something I would have to get started on, a new like chapter beginning.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what it&#8217;s going to be then, brothers, as I come to the like end of this tale. You have been everywhere with your little droog Alex, suffering with him, and you have viddied some of the most grahzny bratchnies old Bog ever made, all on to your old droog Alex. And all it was was that I was young. But now as I end this story, brothers, I am not young, not no longer, oh no. Alex like groweth up, oh yes.</p>
<p>But where I itty now, O my brothers, is all on my oddy knocky, where you cannot go. Tomorrow is all like sweet flowers and the turning vonny earth and the stars and the old Luna up there and your old droog Alex all on his oddy knocky seeking like a mate. And all that cal. A terrible grahzny vonny world, really, O my brothers. And so farewell from your little droog. And to all others in this story profound shooms of lip-music brrrrr. And they can kiss my sharries. But you, O my brothers, remember sometimes thy little Alex that was. Amen. And all that cal.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Jack Crassus</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-11296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Crassus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Sep 2013 15:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-11296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;@John Hannon&lt;/strong&gt;

Yes, related is my comment above. Care about something larger and more permanent than yourself and you will find the lure of nihilism diminished.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@John Hannon</strong></p>
<p>Yes, related is my comment above. Care about something larger and more permanent than yourself and you will find the lure of nihilism diminished.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jack Crassus</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/the-monkey-trap/#comment-11295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Crassus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Sep 2013 15:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1128#comment-11295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@PuzzlePirate

Don&#039;t form an essentialist theory about intelligence or Europeanism to explain why intelligent Europeans adopt progressive morality. A theocracy was installed in America and the way to gain status is through piety. Intelligent people are good at gaining status. 

We have a sample size of one civilization at this level of technology. We can&#039;t draw conclusions about what must be. 

@James A. Donald

Nationalism is natural. I have an idea for a friendly form of nationalism that I have been kicking around that allows for defining a &quot;nation&quot; in ways other than ethnicity (though that too if that&#039;s what you want!). It&#039;s a kind of libertarian nationalism - nationalism with a strong streak of &quot;live and let live&quot;. 

It&#039;s competitive advantage as a memeplex is that people want to have pride in their way of life, and I feel like a lot of Westerners would leap at a nice way to have pride instead of being forced to demean their own society. 

It can also be formulated as an expanded form of utilitarianism - maximizing not just your own enjoyment, but also the benefit of the people and institutions you care about. Under utilitarianism the sphere of things you care about is too small and under universalist utilitarianism (such as preached at Less Wrong) the sphere of things you care about is too large. 

We need to formulate a natural ideology that appeals to what people innately care about. The more real ideology wins out over the more abstract when the two conflict. The dissolution of the EU is the perfect time for this to spread.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PuzzlePirate</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t form an essentialist theory about intelligence or Europeanism to explain why intelligent Europeans adopt progressive morality. A theocracy was installed in America and the way to gain status is through piety. Intelligent people are good at gaining status. </p>
<p>We have a sample size of one civilization at this level of technology. We can&#8217;t draw conclusions about what must be. </p>
<p>@James A. Donald</p>
<p>Nationalism is natural. I have an idea for a friendly form of nationalism that I have been kicking around that allows for defining a &#8220;nation&#8221; in ways other than ethnicity (though that too if that&#8217;s what you want!). It&#8217;s a kind of libertarian nationalism &#8211; nationalism with a strong streak of &#8220;live and let live&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s competitive advantage as a memeplex is that people want to have pride in their way of life, and I feel like a lot of Westerners would leap at a nice way to have pride instead of being forced to demean their own society. </p>
<p>It can also be formulated as an expanded form of utilitarianism &#8211; maximizing not just your own enjoyment, but also the benefit of the people and institutions you care about. Under utilitarianism the sphere of things you care about is too small and under universalist utilitarianism (such as preached at Less Wrong) the sphere of things you care about is too large. </p>
<p>We need to formulate a natural ideology that appeals to what people innately care about. The more real ideology wins out over the more abstract when the two conflict. The dissolution of the EU is the perfect time for this to spread.</p>
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