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	<title>Comments on: Thedes</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Bloodlines &#124; Losing The Creek</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-177508</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bloodlines &#124; Losing The Creek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2015 08:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-177508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] thedes even exist among whites in the US today? We can name a few, at least, depending on the definition: Southerners and Mormons appear to be the two most distinct. But for the vast majority of white [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] thedes even exist among whites in the US today? We can name a few, at least, depending on the definition: Southerners and Mormons appear to be the two most distinct. But for the vast majority of white [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Lightning Round &#8211; 2014/10/28 &#124; Free Northerner</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-129446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lightning Round &#8211; 2014/10/28 &#124; Free Northerner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2014 05:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-129446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] On thedes. Related: Nydwracu responds defining thedes. [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] On thedes. Related: Nydwracu responds defining thedes. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: nydwracu</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-128066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nydwracu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-128066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Or maybe ‘thede’ means something like ‘imagined community that has a biological/racial basis.” It’s the intersection of the two primary sources of identity, the biological one and the imagined/chosen one. I kinda get the sense that this is how NRxers use the term. I think that may be how theden.tv uses the term.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Theden&#039;s (originally-intended, but implying a project too difficult to really be undertaken yet) sense is more along the lines of (multiple, because empire) nationalism.

See also: &lt;a href=&quot;http://countersignal.tumblr.com/post/99342721933/can-you-explain-usonian-futurism-to-me&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Usonian Futurism&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Or maybe ‘thede’ means something like ‘imagined community that has a biological/racial basis.” It’s the intersection of the two primary sources of identity, the biological one and the imagined/chosen one. I kinda get the sense that this is how NRxers use the term. I think that may be how theden.tv uses the term.</p></blockquote>
<p>Theden&#8217;s (originally-intended, but implying a project too difficult to really be undertaken yet) sense is more along the lines of (multiple, because empire) nationalism.</p>
<p>See also: <a href="http://countersignal.tumblr.com/post/99342721933/can-you-explain-usonian-futurism-to-me" rel="nofollow">Usonian Futurism</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Thedes and phyles &#124; nydwracu niþgrim, nihtbealwa mæst</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-128044</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thedes and phyles &#124; nydwracu niþgrim, nihtbealwa mæst]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-128044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Xenosystems: [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Xenosystems: [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 20:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;But to the extent we need one, I’d offer that a thede is any non-random partially enduring cluster of breeding pairs. &quot;

This is called a &quot;deme&quot;.  

&quot;By this definition, a thede is basically the same thing as Steve Sailer’s ‘race’–a partially inbred population–but without the baggage.&quot; 

Sailer&#039;s races are not demes.  They are bred, not breeding, populations.  This confusion illustrates why we are fond of the (informationally) loaded term &quot;race&quot;.  It&#039;s cladistically informative e.g., &quot;race de noble&quot;.  It reminds us that we are discussing ancestry, not (necessarily) descendancy -- or at least it calls to mind the distinction.  

But what&#039;s a thede?  The compression of &quot;thede&quot; into &quot;deme&quot; involves too much dimensional loss.  New York city is a deme, strictly understood.  Is it, therefore, a thede? (No.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But to the extent we need one, I’d offer that a thede is any non-random partially enduring cluster of breeding pairs. &#8221;</p>
<p>This is called a &#8220;deme&#8221;.  </p>
<p>&#8220;By this definition, a thede is basically the same thing as Steve Sailer’s ‘race’–a partially inbred population–but without the baggage.&#8221; </p>
<p>Sailer&#8217;s races are not demes.  They are bred, not breeding, populations.  This confusion illustrates why we are fond of the (informationally) loaded term &#8220;race&#8221;.  It&#8217;s cladistically informative e.g., &#8220;race de noble&#8221;.  It reminds us that we are discussing ancestry, not (necessarily) descendancy &#8212; or at least it calls to mind the distinction.  </p>
<p>But what&#8217;s a thede?  The compression of &#8220;thede&#8221; into &#8220;deme&#8221; involves too much dimensional loss.  New York city is a deme, strictly understood.  Is it, therefore, a thede? (No.)</p>
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		<title>By: Roi</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127632</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 12:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127632</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nydwracus usage makes thedes a useful concept for psychological analysis. You already have the concepts of tribe and ethnicity, but the brain will often treat modern &quot;artificial&quot; identities as if they were connected to group survival.

For example: thedes are an excellent tool to explain gamergate, with things like ideological nepotism and why gamers have never been the intended audience of  Sarkeesian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nydwracus usage makes thedes a useful concept for psychological analysis. You already have the concepts of tribe and ethnicity, but the brain will often treat modern &#8220;artificial&#8221; identities as if they were connected to group survival.</p>
<p>For example: thedes are an excellent tool to explain gamergate, with things like ideological nepotism and why gamers have never been the intended audience of  Sarkeesian.</p>
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		<title>By: Sulla</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sulla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 11:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bookchin#Legacy_and_influence

The Kurds fighting ISIS are seeking to build a system of &quot;libertarian municipalism&quot;, basically a patchwork (albeit a somewhat socialistic one).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bookchin#Legacy_and_influence" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bookchin#Legacy_and_influence</a></p>
<p>The Kurds fighting ISIS are seeking to build a system of &#8220;libertarian municipalism&#8221;, basically a patchwork (albeit a somewhat socialistic one).</p>
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		<title>By: &#124;&#124;&#124;&#124;&#124;</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[&#124;&#124;&#124;&#124;&#124;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 10:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like an application of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_space&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;proximity spaces&lt;/a&gt; within a more general genealogical (and fortuitously named) &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabu_search&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tabu search&lt;/a&gt; habitually manifested as &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;proxemics&lt;/a&gt;.

A &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/qsr/pub/vakarelov-fois01.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;couple&lt;/a&gt; of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereology&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;notes&lt;/a&gt;.

Will try to explain more clearly what I mean later.

I hate you NRx people. You exponentially increase the amount of reading I want to do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like an application of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_space" rel="nofollow">proximity spaces</a> within a more general genealogical (and fortuitously named) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabu_search" rel="nofollow">tabu search</a> habitually manifested as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics" rel="nofollow">proxemics</a>.</p>
<p>A <a href="http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/qsr/pub/vakarelov-fois01.pdf" rel="nofollow">couple</a> of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereology" rel="nofollow">notes</a>.</p>
<p>Will try to explain more clearly what I mean later.</p>
<p>I hate you NRx people. You exponentially increase the amount of reading I want to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Dark Psy-Ops</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dark Psy-Ops]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 09:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hesitant to add more toxic fog to the definition of Thede - the word itself seems irreparably demotic. Anyhow, a Thede, from my understanding, insofar as it is a real emergent (hyper)-individual, is not reducible to its constituent parts (or even the relations between them). Loyalty to a Thede can be measured by actions that increase the fitness of the whole, and the fitness of the whole can be (perhaps too circularly) defined as the loyalty of its parts. Loyalty and fitness = reproductive success and the favour of Gnon.  Sub-cultures are intra-thedish, but genuinely novel Thedes are the product of cladogenesis which arguably acquires a degree of reflexive purpose amongst aspiring post-human primates. The exit-in-place made possible via virtual territories is a necessary auto-catalyst for Thedic escape velocities but geographic isolation would almost definitely accelerate the process of &#039;punctuated equilibrium&#039; (if only there were enough a-typicals...). Space colonies are an out-breeders paradise, and sea-steading sounds like Autist Utopia. A Thede proper would be impenetrable to entryism as inclusion is not contingent on nomination but rather on high-level productive integration.  Hierarchy will follow naturally (and formally) from ancestry, and exile would be the ultimate punishment. (one&#039;s exit is another&#039;s exile). We will hear more of this I&#039;m sure, though the concept isn&#039;t some dialectic free-for-all. In fact, what could be more &#039;sinister&#039; than the longed-for splitting of speciation?

Unrelated, but I&#039;m also fond of this idea of &#039;direct neural interface&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hesitant to add more toxic fog to the definition of Thede &#8211; the word itself seems irreparably demotic. Anyhow, a Thede, from my understanding, insofar as it is a real emergent (hyper)-individual, is not reducible to its constituent parts (or even the relations between them). Loyalty to a Thede can be measured by actions that increase the fitness of the whole, and the fitness of the whole can be (perhaps too circularly) defined as the loyalty of its parts. Loyalty and fitness = reproductive success and the favour of Gnon.  Sub-cultures are intra-thedish, but genuinely novel Thedes are the product of cladogenesis which arguably acquires a degree of reflexive purpose amongst aspiring post-human primates. The exit-in-place made possible via virtual territories is a necessary auto-catalyst for Thedic escape velocities but geographic isolation would almost definitely accelerate the process of &#8216;punctuated equilibrium&#8217; (if only there were enough a-typicals&#8230;). Space colonies are an out-breeders paradise, and sea-steading sounds like Autist Utopia. A Thede proper would be impenetrable to entryism as inclusion is not contingent on nomination but rather on high-level productive integration.  Hierarchy will follow naturally (and formally) from ancestry, and exile would be the ultimate punishment. (one&#8217;s exit is another&#8217;s exile). We will hear more of this I&#8217;m sure, though the concept isn&#8217;t some dialectic free-for-all. In fact, what could be more &#8216;sinister&#8217; than the longed-for splitting of speciation?</p>
<p>Unrelated, but I&#8217;m also fond of this idea of &#8216;direct neural interface&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Erebus</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/thedes/#comment-127547</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erebus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2014 08:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=3942#comment-127547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Scientism-
I haven&#039;t looked at it from that perspective before, and I believe that you&#039;re right.  At least in most cases, and in the near-future.

...With that said, I believe that the penultimate question shall always be: Shall I truly modify my child?  The ultimate question would then be:  Shall I endeavor to make it more or better than human?  If both questions have been answered in the affirmative, I believe that there are certain universal or nearly-universal values -- or, rather, enhancements -- which people of diverse biological backgrounds shall attempt to impart to their children.  Two of the most obvious are increases in health and in intelligence.  

Health is strongly associated with longevity, so let&#039;s suppose that a normal parent wants to impart to his or her child an enhanced, weakly superhuman lifespan.  This should be trivially possible: We already know of dozens of genes that are implicated in aging and the regulation of longevity, such as the FOXO group, MTOR, LMNA and the associated SIRTs, TERT, etc.  In theory, one would want to dampen expression of MTOR and its downstream products, and amplify the expression of FOXO, the sirtuins, etc.  (Perhaps the easiest way to do this would be to silence the negative regulators of these &#039;positive&#039; genes.)  This sort of genetic modification is emphatically not a problem -- and it&#039;s very plausible that if you fire on all cylinders, modifying all lifespan-related genetic targets, radical life-extension shall result.

The interesting thing is that the lifespan genes also have an awful lot to do with metabolism, and this sort of genetic modification will necessarily result in tremendous metabolic consequences.  Lifespan-engineered humans will be far shorter and slighter than average, leaner than average, their muscles will be of a predominantly oxidative/slow-twitch phenotype, they&#039;ll have markedly improved insulin sensitivity, it&#039;s very likely that their PPAR genes will not function normally, and so forth.  Lifespan-engineered humans will be very different from their parents; they&#039;ll be very different from what they would have been had they simply inherited their genes; they may constitute a unique biological thede if there are enough of them.  (Especially as they enter their ninth or tenth decade of life, rather spryly!) 

And this is among the simplest possible examples:  We&#039;re looking at optimizing one, and only one, outcome.  Even in this simple case, the modified persons will be recognizably different from baseline humans.  It&#039;s more than likely that real-world cases of genetic enhancement shall eventually become much more extreme -- especially given the potentially recursive nature of intelligence enhancement.   (To say nothing of the fact that we cannot know how entities of greater-than-human intelligence will view their cultural inheritance.)

...Ah, in any case, I&#039;d wager that we&#039;re all going to look like Charlie Stross&#039;s Vile Offspring sooner or later. In other words, divorced utterly from our biology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Scientism-<br />
I haven&#8217;t looked at it from that perspective before, and I believe that you&#8217;re right.  At least in most cases, and in the near-future.</p>
<p>&#8230;With that said, I believe that the penultimate question shall always be: Shall I truly modify my child?  The ultimate question would then be:  Shall I endeavor to make it more or better than human?  If both questions have been answered in the affirmative, I believe that there are certain universal or nearly-universal values &#8212; or, rather, enhancements &#8212; which people of diverse biological backgrounds shall attempt to impart to their children.  Two of the most obvious are increases in health and in intelligence.  </p>
<p>Health is strongly associated with longevity, so let&#8217;s suppose that a normal parent wants to impart to his or her child an enhanced, weakly superhuman lifespan.  This should be trivially possible: We already know of dozens of genes that are implicated in aging and the regulation of longevity, such as the FOXO group, MTOR, LMNA and the associated SIRTs, TERT, etc.  In theory, one would want to dampen expression of MTOR and its downstream products, and amplify the expression of FOXO, the sirtuins, etc.  (Perhaps the easiest way to do this would be to silence the negative regulators of these &#8216;positive&#8217; genes.)  This sort of genetic modification is emphatically not a problem &#8212; and it&#8217;s very plausible that if you fire on all cylinders, modifying all lifespan-related genetic targets, radical life-extension shall result.</p>
<p>The interesting thing is that the lifespan genes also have an awful lot to do with metabolism, and this sort of genetic modification will necessarily result in tremendous metabolic consequences.  Lifespan-engineered humans will be far shorter and slighter than average, leaner than average, their muscles will be of a predominantly oxidative/slow-twitch phenotype, they&#8217;ll have markedly improved insulin sensitivity, it&#8217;s very likely that their PPAR genes will not function normally, and so forth.  Lifespan-engineered humans will be very different from their parents; they&#8217;ll be very different from what they would have been had they simply inherited their genes; they may constitute a unique biological thede if there are enough of them.  (Especially as they enter their ninth or tenth decade of life, rather spryly!) </p>
<p>And this is among the simplest possible examples:  We&#8217;re looking at optimizing one, and only one, outcome.  Even in this simple case, the modified persons will be recognizably different from baseline humans.  It&#8217;s more than likely that real-world cases of genetic enhancement shall eventually become much more extreme &#8212; especially given the potentially recursive nature of intelligence enhancement.   (To say nothing of the fact that we cannot know how entities of greater-than-human intelligence will view their cultural inheritance.)</p>
<p>&#8230;Ah, in any case, I&#8217;d wager that we&#8217;re all going to look like Charlie Stross&#8217;s Vile Offspring sooner or later. In other words, divorced utterly from our biology.</p>
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