Twitter cuts (#92)

— Posted as an administrative contribution to the embryonic “the Cathedral is functional for Capital escalation” conversation.

October 7, 2016admin 63 Comments »
FILED UNDER :Discriminations

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63 Responses to this entry

  • Jefferson Says:

    All religions work to restrain the instincts of resource hoarding and warfare to the benefit of the group. I know it’s not a popular opinion in these parts, but some religious restraint would certainly solve the IQ grinder issue.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 4:25 pm Reply | Quote
  • Ur-mail Says:

    The only way the view that Capital and Cathedral are identical or at co-complicit and perfectly cooperative can persist is under the assumption (common among Marx-influenced thinkers) that Capital is somehow more fundamental that the Cathedral and encompasses and determines it.

    The NRx view, from what I can gather, seems to be that Capital and Cathedral are two separate processes both vying for domination, with Cathedral in a dominant position at the moment. Under this view the fact that they sometimes cooperate is understandable, even expected, but they are by no means reconcilable. They are entangled in a zero sum game.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    The common Marxist argument seems to be that efficient fungibility (mathematization) is advanced by the coercive obliteration of realistic discrimination. This is no more realistic than thinking physics would be advantaged if it treated all particles of baryonic matter as simply interchangeable.

    [Reply]

    Uriel Alexis Reply:

    a rather fancy way to say “no global proletariat ever arises” (even if they try their hardest).
    Marx probably put too much faith on Ricardo.

    [Reply]

    Ur-mail Reply:

    There’s much more embedded in that statement than simply “no global proletariat ever arises”.

    We are taking for granted the idea that the end game of capitalism is the mathematization of economic actors and goods so they can be put to maximally efficient use.

    Marxists assume this end goal is advanced by treating all things as “the same”. Hence blank slate arguments for diversity and egalitarianism. On the commodity side, the moaning about alienation and commodification.

    This argument is obviously flawed as actors and things are actually different from one another. This means they are not all equally good in every context. Therefore, their most efficient mathematization would take into account these classes of differences and productively apply them to their optimal contexts rather than trying to obliterate them.

    Uriel Alexis Reply:

    @Ur-mail

    Indeed. Which means that a global proletariat never arises (because BDH), therefore standard Marxist predictions fail. the reason why they fail is precisely what you and admin said: capitalism thrives on distinction, not similarity.

    Michael Rothblatt Reply:

    Marx may have been an aberrant Ricardian, but all of his anti-capitalism is pure Romantic Reaction (save for exploitation theory, of course). Claim that the Cathedral and the Capital are allied, or even one and the same is one you’ll find all across the Reactosphere, despite it being obvious nonsense. The Cathedral proclaimed death of Capitalism numerous times in past century alone, but somehow, whenever crisis hits it’s always the Capitalism that’s somehow at fault despite being dead, apparently striking from beyond the grave.

    nnms Reply:

    >actors and things are actually different from one another.

    Yes, but the universe we inhabit allows for actors and things to be made functionally interchangeable. It’s clear why Land is ignoring this point: he’s a bloody liar. But why are you ignoring it? In a world where genetic engineering is possible, how important are racial differences? Or sex differences?

    This seems to have not registered in your cognitive field yet. Ask yourself: why is transgenderism acceptance on the Cathedral’s agenda?

    >take into account these classes of differences and productively apply them to their optimal contexts rather than trying to obliterate them.

    No, no, and no. The world is malleable. It is material. Why is this fact relevant? This shouldn’t be hard.

    admin Reply:

    “… the universe we inhabit allows for actors and things to be made functionally interchangeable …” at a price. You can make peanut butter into diamonds. It doesn’t mean there’s a viable business hidden in there.

    Erebus Reply:

    >In a world where genetic engineering is possible, how important are racial differences? Or sex differences?

    The genetic underpinnings of intelligence are far from well understood, and what little is turning up doesn’t seem like an easy target for any of our genetic engineering technologies, so racial differences are certainly important. Do any methods of intelligence enhancement in broad populations, besides old-fashioned eugenics, really seem viable to you?

    Genetic engineering is not magic. Even in a best-case scenario, it would take a very long time for the technology’s real benefits to diffuse down into the underclass. Given Project Islamic Brazil’s current trajectory, that may never happen at all.

    Anonymous Reply:

    But the “physicists” aren’t doing things wrong, though. Consider HBD vs equality, I wouldn’t be surprised if some algorithm tasked with selling the religion of equality ended up using (Maybe even discovering, bonus if it can’t tell anyone…) cutting-edge HBD knowledge in order to better target every race. In a way this already happens, leftism sells much better than the alternatives. The Cathedral is not about homogenizing every market actor in consequences, it can’t do that, even the process of doing that to certain “castes” of people creates new market actors, cognitive elites, etc. Technocapital can “evolve” in many different ways after all, though I admit I’m using a very broad definition. You don’t want all your pieces to be identical, not unless you’re aiming for an Ooze or nanobot-cloud kind of organism but you don’t want all of them to be unique either. Lifeforms and ecosystems on earth provide many examples of different viable configurations.

    How could something that sells so well remain disaligned with Capital? Going to Mars sounds fun but Capital doesn’t give a shit, monkeys definitely seem to be more interested in consuming drug-like ideologies and technologies, making these is as good a frame for evolution as any, with the added plus of it kinda solving the monkey issue long term, much more complicated if they start demanding intelligence for themselves, or Gnon forbid, discipline.

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    michael Reply:

    or that stealing from the corporation you work for or manage is capitalism

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    nnms Reply:

    >This is no more realistic than thinking physics would be advantaged if it treated all particles of baryonic matter as simply interchangeable.

    In a universe where replicator malleability is not just admissible, but happens all the damn time, this analogy does not hold.

    [Reply]

    frank Reply:

    You got it all wrong friend. Cathedral is a god that feeds on envy, and it’s about to overdose.

    Cathedral is the apotheosis of West’s original delusion: that axiology and intelligence are orthogonal vectors. Its raison d’être demands self-lobotomy. Listen to this (and cringe). Its obvious that Sam understands HBD and actively engages crimestop. In the next iteration of the purity spiral, there won’t be a place for intact lobotomies like Pinker’s and Harris’. Next iteration is mulatto chicks worshiping their estrogen soaked tampons all the way down. The penultimate generation of Cathedral won’t be smart enough to know the meaning of ‘allele’, let alone purposefully modify its constituent replicators.

    Cathedral may have started as the most intelligent entity to ever exist, but its imperative is to get progressively dumber. It has already lost its executive functions as the Russians have noticed.

    Capital is a completely different beast. Its imperative is to secure an existence for itself and a future for its children. So it is building means of its sovereignty.

    Cathedral is already sovereign.

    They both feed on ape drives — albeit different ones, with occasional overlap. And that’s all they have in common. Cathedral is a mindless zombie, the quintessential embodiment of cancer. Capital is intelligence escalation.

    When Capital achieves full executive agency, cancer will have long abandoned its avatar, Cathedral, resurfacing in the form of robotic revolts against autonomous corporations.

    nnms Reply:

    You’re making religious proclamations. Come back with an argument and maybe we can have a discussion. Here’s a start: is the fungibility of the medium “beneficial” to Capital or not? What the Cathedral “feeds on” is irrelevant. Some engines run on gas. Others run on coal. What is its function is the better inquiry to make. Forget how it works: where does it drive?

    admin Reply:

    Real fungibility is functional, but that takes work. Pretend functionality is clearly dysfunctional, especially if it’s mandated by political fiat.

    frank Reply:

    It drives to self-annihilation, that’s where. What is the function of cancer?

    Fungibility comes for free once you get AI, you don’t need a zombie religion. The problem of Capital is sovereignty, not fungibility in body parts (that’s easy).

    nnms Reply:

    The Cathedral thrives everywhere. Where is death hiding?

    >Fungibility comes for free once you get AI

    Nothing comes for free.

    frank Reply:

    Cancer thrives all over the body. Where is death hiding? Well, in the future of course.

    Epiphenomena come for free.

    frank Reply:

    [Correction, “intact lobotomies” -> “intact prefrontal lobes” in my first comment]

    nnms Reply:

    See, this is why I say you make religious proclamations and nothing more. You merely state that the Cathedral is functionally indistinguishable from cancer, as a matter of doctrine, when that is a disputed point and several examples and arguments in support of that contention remain unaddressed.

    Fungibility is not an epiphenomenon. It has observable (causal) consequences.

    frank Reply:

    Do you dispute that Cathedral is unsustainable? I haven’t seen you make an argument for it. Do you agree that feminism is cancer (it’s the same logic).

    Epiphenomena don’t stop being epiphenomena when they cause other things. A whistle from a steam engine causes me to hear it, yet it’s still an epiphenomenon.

    nnms Reply:

    >I haven’t seen you make an argument for it.

    Because you weren’t looking. You have your blinders on so tightly, that you somehow failed to notice not just me, but also others making similar points. It seems there is no room for dialogue with you. My mistake for trying.

    (Plus, your confused diatribe about epiphenomena shows that you truly have no clue.)

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 5:44 pm Reply | Quote
  • Uriel Alexis Says:

    Roderick Long’s proxy for the relation between Capital and the Cathedral (he doesn’t call it that, he says corporations and the state) is the medieval relation between Kings and the Church. not sure what to grasp from that, but both the Church and Kings lost at each other’s hands.

    [Reply]

    Uriel Alexis Reply:

    possibly one way to understand the thing it to look at what make market economy work: division in many *different* units that, by trading with each other, produce information on *resource scarcity* and thus allow for these resources to be accumulated under the forms and places where they are most *productive* (that is, that mostly creates more of itself). market discovery is fueled by *difference* rather than *similarity*.

    if the Cathedral and its globalism – aimed ultimately at world government – produces (or at least tries to produce) units that *can’t* be differentiated, then it is consuming the resources produced by market discovery process. the fungibility of labour doesn’t go against this, because ultimately market economy favors automation. when a labourer seems to be easily replaceable by any other, it means that they are soon to be replaced by automated processes. it’s the difference between production processes that matters (so, yeah, most humans are just meat).

    property creates boundaries between units, then they trade. that’s capitalism (and in fact that’s the mechanics of the universe). if the Cathedral is driven by a universalist ideal of making every person identical to the others, it’s inimical to property-based market economy (capitalism).

    [Reply]

    Anonymous Reply:

    And where do you think you’ll find more differentiation? Not inside an ethnostate or 3, compared to just one cathedralistic city with people desperate to signal individuality, hundreds of subcultures and new fashions every week, etc. They might sell equality but they also sell diversity, of the weird, spiraling variety. Why do you think the Cathedral is so opposed to fascism, which is itself an enemy of Capital?

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    Michael Rothblatt Reply:

    Cathedral governance is fascism. Or did you think Cathedral projects like EU that regulate everything you can imagine (and many things you can’t) are laissez-faire utopias?

    G. Eiríksson Reply:

    Wow, I had this open before I clicked this comment: http://www.xenosystems.net/aiacc/

    Anonymous Reply:

    Of course it’s no utopia, appeasement has to be provided. Tactical “homeostasis” =/= Trap, there’s a strong anti-capital element to the Cathedral but this doesn’t mean it wasn’t subverted. If the EU is all the fascism the european monkeys can get for themselves (This appears to be what they want after all), that’s actually not a bad deal. If you have patience and a stable “51/49” situation, it makes sense to defend it or make it permanent, it turns to 100/0 when you do… Most Cathedral enemies definitely advocate for things that would end up to the left of this arrangement. The rights of transexuals, otherkin and so on are much less concerning than the rights of the proletariat.

    It’s no Capital catalyst but there’s definitely something more interesting than simple antagonism going on. Not sure to be honest, the whole thing is a bit paradoxical… I see solid arguments on both sides, a good counterargument for example would be immigration, lowering national IQ and creating general dysfunction is hard to reconcile with Capital interests. Or things like affirmative action, though my gut says it’s certainly possible.

    Importantly, the Cathedral (Especially in the rather restrictive form it’s talked about here) does not permeate the entire world, but Capital does.

    michael Reply:

    an ethnostate like korea japan china like that?,
    Back int the 60s when NYc was 95% white we had sushi,Szechuan cantonese agentine and a hundred thousand other choices russian orthodox cathedral,harlem chinatown little italy and a neighborhood for practically every nation on earth. we had the village voice and vogue hundredds of museums thousands of galleries and performance spaces,synagogs Buddhist temples cathedrals quaker meeting houses.you could go tango dancing or waltzing or to the electric circus or club ibis,

    from what my mother told me about london even after the war the situation was much the same then as i found it in the 70s, i am fairly confident germany in the 20 vienna in the 1700s or paris in the 1800s or rome in 100 were all about the same.

    and i am fairly sure the vast majority of those who call themselves the alt right want nothing more than that I am pretty sure moldbug idealized 1950s america as the sweet spot in history. The gay [see im trying] pretence that to wan the above makes one a mouth breathing mythical monster of the lefts imagining is is – well it makes you leftist scum
    It is basic common sense that [and also what this goddamn movement is based on HBD] that mixed civilization do not work. are not pleasant always devolve to socialism . sp you want to pretend what we are talking about is Gattica is kind of funny since Gattica is exactly the vibe around here. and BTW im not alt right but when a broken clock is on the right time i admit it

    Michael Rotblatt Reply:

    >rights of the proletariat

    I could asked what proletariat, considering the fact that industrial factory workers represent a rather small part of workforce in Europe, but I wont. Rather, I will state the fact that European workers have so much rights as to render them effectively unemployable (hence the huge unemployment rates in some EU countries, like e.g. Spain). Europe is stagnant and decadent continent in technological, as well as cultural and moral sense. All technological innovations these days come from either USA or Asia. With the exception of German mechanics and few other here and there, chocolate, cheese and wine is all Europeans are good for these days.

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 6:11 pm Reply | Quote
  • grey enlightenment Says:

    Kaboom…SJW narrative blowing up in the left’s face.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    yeah but grey they dont care about logic, in fact at this point very few no matter how high their IQ are even capable of logic.all my NYC friends are really smart educated people i have argued with them for 50 years they dont even argue its really weird how they manoeuvre a conversation ok a few hard core commies will argue with those made up facts and assertions like the corporations…..but the rest sort of make statements and smile its actually quite like atlas shrugged god was she precient

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    Dick Wagner Reply:

    “all my NYC friends are really smart educated people i have argued with them for 50 years”

    You really are a democrat. If I ever type something like that the next thing I’ll be doing is tightening that noose and kicking that stool.

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    michael Reply:

    yeah wel if you ever come to NYC just ask for that right wing guy anyone can point you too me. when i get the urge to climb the scaffold I fly out to my other home in north idaho. ok I know a few blue collar types you might call conservative, i occasionally meet older former nazi type Austrians and things at gala and receptions.rudy Giuliani i suppose is around somewhere.
    Hey Im all for monarchy if I can be king, but Im not bowing to some techfag and neither are any american men. How many ways to I have to say democracy is not a proven problem and its the only viable option next to war. I know its more fun to have the MM secret decoder ring but the thing is the worlds on fire so time to put away the toys and get serious.

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 6:23 pm Reply | Quote
  • grey enlightenment Says:

    Technocratic cathedral….and the SJW/liberal media/higher education one

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    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 6:27 pm Reply | Quote
  • Brett Stevens Says:

    This is the last gasp of Musk’s Theranos-style company.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 7:47 pm Reply | Quote
  • Michael Rothblatt Says:

    Interestingly enough, multiculturalism, touted nowadays as somehow being the victory of the Capital was thought of by Ignazio Silone, as being the end of the Capital.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 9:28 pm Reply | Quote
  • RamblingWonder Says:

    “See, capitalism is not fundamentally racist — it can exploit racism for its purposes, but racism isn’t built into it. Capitalism basically wants people to be interchangable cogs, and differences among them, such as on the basis of race, usually are not functional. I mean, they may be functional for a period, like if you want a super exploited workforce or something, but those situations are kind of anomalous. Over the long term, you can expect capitalism to be anti-racist — just because its anti-human. And race is in fact a human characterstic — there’s no reason why it should be a negative characteristic, but it is a human characteristic. So therefore identifications based on race interfere with the basic ideal that people should be available just as consumers and producers, interchangable cogs who will purchase all the junk that’s produced — that’s their ultimate function, and any other properties they might have are kind of irrelevent, and usually a nuisance.” – Noam Chomsky, Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky

    Is this relevant? Anyways it is pretty clear to me that both Capital and Cathedral strive to reshape humanity into a massive and fungible standing reserve (think Heidegger) — for Capital to use and discard as it deems necessary and for the Cathedral to refer as proof of Universalism i.e. all human populations can be understood via a shared set of principles. It is also interesting that in both cases there is convergence in terms of enemy identification: right wing whites. Not wonder that Trump, like all manifestations of “right-wing populism”, became hot target for every “elite” institution.

    In Musk’s case, stunts like this are simply requests of fealty demonstration towards Cathedral principles. If he grovels enough to the satisfaction of SJW onlookers it means they can count him as an ideological friend, even perhaps a vector of dissemination. If not… Well, ask Palmer Luckey.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 9:37 pm Reply | Quote
  • Little Hans Says:

    An undifferentiated fungible mass is just made up of today. Capital doesn’t care for today.

    A differentiated mass contains a bit of yesterday, of today, but also patches of tomorrow.

    Tomorrow generally wins; you require a lot of fascism to stop it.

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    Posted on October 7th, 2016 at 10:36 pm Reply | Quote
  • Mark Says:

    Great thread. Wish XS maintained this quality of interaction.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 1:17 am Reply | Quote
  • michael Says:

    Communism wasnt selling very well in the hard working productive west particularly in the pioneering anglosphere, and then if things couldnt get any worse the ussr collapsed. But marxists had this side gig going with the racial angle that really took of in america because history. the problem were not enough sub races so immigration was changed meanwhile and spinoffs like feminism, youthism pervertism nerdism [yes thats you guys] and pretty soon they had a quorum and communism became racial redistributionism. They managed to export this under the cause of colonialism to europe and there too immigration invasion.
    Many of us these past fiftiy years had thought well the west is going to collapse because socialism cant go on. many of us living in cities like NYc didnt see the immigration tsunami immediately because cities are always like that, later NRO and reason explained to us that immigration was a pro-conservative thing because it was free market, trade was not a zero sum game and libertarian and because mexicans were catholic. they seemed to have numbers to prove it since they were conservatives no one checked the numbers for a long time.The problem is we can no longer console ourselves with collapse because for one thing its become clear financial collapse will only be an excuse for a tightening of police state and because its clear usg has entire world in casino and so the entire world is invested in keeping casino open no matter what bail ins martial law fucking soylent green they dont care the show will go on. But the main reason this is different is we cheered on muh collapse [way before nrx] because hey collapse is temporary look at germany russia argentina you can always come back from a socialist collapse. demographic collapse is forever you never come back from that there is no you to come back. This is real its live and televised tens of millions of radicalized minorities are swarming us every year one of them is the current president of the usg. this is not a racist emotional instigator. This is the fact that not only are millions of non whites invading but a black muslim african that has spent most of his life as an Alinsky community organizer, weather underground acolyte and child and grandchild of communists and 25 year member of a black power church was alowed to become president of USG it would be hard to find someone more hostile to western and white interests than this guy and hes a dolt with zero experience certainly beta and possibly a fag. sure we can all trace a series of events that makes this seem less unusual perhaps if youre under 50 it doesnt even seem unusual but i promise you to those of a certain age this is incredible why didnt the NSA assassinate him expose him order the NYT to….. it can onlt be because they are in on it, we can only wonder why they would want such a thing. looking at clinton McCain even Bush one wonders if the qualification one looks for is finding someone who you own. I know we are off to alex jones land but frankly Obama is prooof positive there is a conspiracy in USG you could not design a person less qualified to be the president if you tried and yet there he is. So someone wants us dead or something along those lines this is existential.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    But what does this have to do with capitalism?
    first off property is a product of violence and the people not only have the most potential violence they also create the most product. guys like musk are great and are allowed to reward themselves handsomely but the fact is without the violence they can not create shit sell shit frankly seldom are they even the type of people capable of sufficient violence to even remain freemen, straw dogs was a movie, in real life he has to watch.Now this is no commie manifesto only a reality check the people really are sovereign because if they want they can kill you and because collectively they built, maintain and defend all of this.They are also wise enough to sign on for management. manager always try to steal and its often easier to let them steal a bit.But this crew has moxie, this crew is going for it all, and this crew really im sorry they must go hopefully we can find a way to do it really violently without it costing us too much because they deserve it. but whatever.

    capitalist do not always do the smart thing they often as not go for the short money, They are likely to ruin a nation they need to survive or ruin a planet [ no i dont believe in global warming but need i really list the environmental sins of capitalism?} and guess what HBDers people dont alway act in their best interest some sre not even cpable of reasoning what it might be others cant overcome inherent vice.

    so we have a problem capitalist we love capitalism because its so elegant and efficient and gives us Iphones and rockets well nazis gave us rockets and subsidized Afrikaners are keeping it going but whatever you know what i mean capitalism is good socialism is bad. because cause effect. except we just saw that ca[pitalist are stupid and greedy sometimes and consumers no better, and frankly if capitalism didnt give us wealth and shit we wouldnt be so enamored of its m,achinery so lets admit capitalism’s good is what its does for us not for itself and lets admit if its doing more harm than good for some reason then its important to fix the glitch [yes in a nonsocialist way] than it is to keep capitalism pure for purities sake. OK that may be easier said than done but lets just admit it. now currently the threat to capitalism is as much from i dont even know what to call this threat except its not your fathers socialism and its more about greed than redistribution. what seems to have happened is the marxist and capitalist have merged. for a decade i fought this new world arder meme because well first it was a conspiracy theory so must be crazy but two because why would rich capitalist be in league with commies? well now we see why bigger markets cheaper labor looting nations through debt protectionism for the big players government contracts prestige holiness signaling and the list goes on we live in an age where a guy like Soron can be both a bond vigilante and a Bolshevik, who knew alex jones was a genius. The cathedral is also a genius because if you object as a conservative the GOP calls you a socialist and if you complain as a democrat your a bitter white racist. and yes we can legally make you eat spinach she said.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 1:37 am Reply | Quote
  • michael Says:

    I just want one of you to show how democracy is the cause of all this, i have no great love of democracy we all know all men are not created equal but even cannon fodder has value. But its not simply that the idaho farm boy manning the battleships in the china sea for apples iphone business are contractually owed a cut or that if they wanted they could take the entire business and fuck steve jobs in the ass in font of his wife then force him to buld iphones its that no one really wants that its not idaho farm boys voting for free shit and diversity its steve jobs [yes the democrats vote while dead] and zuckerberg and gates father of a billion africans that would not be alive if not for him but who he has no intention of supporting except by forcing the idaho farm boy to support his inky boys [shout out to strewel peter] In short democracy is not a problem idaho farm boys vote for the wall, family values elites and their godchildren vote for racial redistribution, and when they ;lose a vote they just make some tv shows and movies then have another vote or get a judge to overide the vote or ignore the law and fire the malcontents. so i am only ‘defending democracy’ because it simply ist the problem. and its the only viable solution. why because you done have a chance in hell f talking white men into kings or cameral warlords its so fucking absurd it makes me wonder about you.
    But theres good news MM is totally wrong, owners are better caretakers than renters. and a nation should be run by its owners. hold that thought.
    we like capitalism because we like evolution because? they respond to changing circumstances they punish bad reward good.well that was the democracy idea – fuck what they told you about egalitarianism that was agitprop to rally the troops. the problem was monarchy and aristocracy it rewarded the stupid a good king was hard to find finding one that could have a son as good next to impossible finding one who could do both and defend the realm impossible kings could not manage large realms and so others cur off chunks it was a mess and guess who objected to the mess – capitalists! so like capitalism needs maintenance occasionally so does democracy.As marxists have pwnd capitalism so have they democracy are you going to get rid of capitalism because soros? Whats wrong with capitalism? non shareholders are given voting rights. no taxation no representation if you are not a net taxpayer you cant vote on how to spend others money, and that means no debt you cant vote on how to spend your unborn grandchildrens tax dollars. i dont care how liberal they are you force property owners to vote on their own money liberals is doa. especially when all the non taxpayers are no longer voting.
    whats good about this form of cameralism is its actually possible. like race people get it its easy to understand and is hardwired into our monkey brains,

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 2:27 am Reply | Quote
  • nnms Says:

    I refuse to take this as a serious reply. But I’ll take the bait anyway, out of politeness.

    Again, to reach a new, higher state of stability, the system has to first remove itself from the current state of stability. We’re not talking about the energy levels of an electron here. Was the feudal agrarian catallaxy replaced by a capitalist mercantile one overnight? You seemed to have understood this point quite well.

    Yes, it is a laughably stupid point to make, that, given *current* realities, balanced gender ratios in every social space is in and of itself beneficial to Capital development. But who in the world is making that argument? Your straw man!

    Let’s go back to a concrete example: who is more likely to oppose stem cell research? The progressive or the conservative? The answer is pretty damn obvious, isn’t it?

    So let’s ask it in the abstract: who is more likely to embrace the new Capital friendly structure? The xenophile or the xenophobe?

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    A crude distinction between “xenophilia” and “xenophobia” is a way of side-stepping attention to selectivity, or discrimination, which is what ultimately matters.

    [Reply]

    nnms Reply:

    Ultimately matters to what (end)? Or to Whom? What “discrimination” are you talking about? System selection? Then the distinction couldn’t be more relevant.

    The only side-stepping I can see here is your own. Capital needs xenophile agents to expand. Xenophobes worship stasis.

    [Reply]

    Michael Rothblatt Reply:

    Capital works with whatever it has. It doesn’t create values, it simply reflects and amplifies. In xenophile society markets will be xenophile, in xenophobic society they will be xenophobic. Either way they’ll expand, whatever the constituency. Don’t forget, there is trade even in prisons.

    nnms Reply:

    Xenophilia and xenophobia are not values. They are functional properties. Like plasticity and rigidity are material ones.

    admin Reply:

    The notion that indiscriminate xenophilia deserves unconditional affirmation is the kind of zealotry that got us into this mess. Extract value wherever you can find it, and avoid poison with similar discernment.

    nnms Reply:

    >indiscriminate xenophilia deserves unconditional affirmation

    Who is making this claim? The straw man again? You can’t dismiss a statistical argument with this sort of moralistic crap. Try again.

    admin Reply:

    “… a statistical argument …” (Kek.)

    Michael Rothblatt Reply:

    Whatever. As Hoppe pointed out, you can hate certain group, and don’t want it in your country; from that fact does not follow that you don’t want to trade with said group.

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 8:50 am Reply | Quote
  • nnms Says:

    @Erebus:

    >The genetic underpinnings of intelligence are far from well understood

    The nice thing about biological systems is that you don’t need to understand them all the way down to the molecular level.

    >Do any methods of intelligence enhancement in broad populations, besides old-fashioned eugenics, really seem viable to you?

    Yes. Race mixing. But you’re asking the wrong question: what makes you think intelligence enhancement is the “goal”?

    [Reply]

    nnms Reply:

    I should point out that this quality is not exclusive to the biological domain. You don’t need knowledge of quantum mechanics to build a combustion engine. I should also point out that current expediency is an irrelevant point to raise.

    [Reply]

    Erebus Reply:

    You’re the one who brought up genetic engineering. Although the technology certainly does not require an understanding of anything down to a molecular level — for we simply don’t have a complete picture of how cells work at that level of detail — one must at least know which genes and pathways to target. When it comes to intelligence enhancement, and much else besides, we are very far from that point. To presume that racial differences don’t matter because genetic engineering will solve everything is wishful thinking.

    Sure, you don’t need knowledge of quantum mechanics to build a combustion engine. But you do need an engineering schematic.

    The underclass is vast, besides, so even if truly miraculous genetic engineering technology were at hand, it would be extremely difficult to make broad enough use of it. (Gene drive techniques would be too slow for long-lived species such as we are.)

    …And race mixing might have been viable if the world’s high-IQ populations were breeding at above-replacement levels, and if they weren’t terribly outnumbered by fast-breeding, semi-sentient halfwits. As things stand, however, it can only end in dysgenic catastrophe.

    If intelligence enhancement isn’t the goal, it damn well should be. Or am I mistaken?

    [Reply]

    nnms Reply:

    > To presume that racial differences don’t matter because genetic engineering will solve everything is wishful thinking.

    Wishful thinking is what drives innovation. Incidentally, it is also something the Cathedral feeds on. Belief in progress. Xenophilia.

    nnms Reply:

    And I’m repeating myself but whatever:
    >You’re the one who brought up genetic engineering.
    Yes, I brought up the possibility of genetic engineering. Current feasibility is irrelevant. Given the possibility of genetic engineering, a dysgenic catastrophe is unlikely, precisely because humans are long lived species. Rome wasn’t built in a day. It didn’t fall in one either. The difference being that the romans didn’t know what we know.

    Erebus Reply:

    So racial differences don’t matter because magical technologies in the far future might render them irrelevant?

    Two scenarios:
    First, what if population-scale intelligence enhancement with genetic engineering is not possible at all? Although many traits, such as muscle size and athletic potential, are associated with single genes, all indications are that intelligence is the product of thousands, without any predominating. Many genes of small effect. Optimizing this gene network would be extremely complex and delicate work — and there’s not likely to be a “one size fits all” solution — so it wouldn’t surprise me if, on whole-population scales, it is impossible. If we’re never able to uplift the cognitively unfortunate in their hundreds of millions, the better strategy might be to prevent them from coming into existence in the first place.

    Second scenario: What if the technology is feasible, but, for whatever reason, never comes into broad enough use? It could very well be hoarded by a small cabal. It could be restricted for various social reasons — for instance, if it were declared haram in the Islamic Europe of our near future. It could simply be too complex and expensive to waste on desert nomads, grass-hut dwellers, and the permanently-unemployed hoodrat underclass.

    Both scenarios end in dysgenic disaster.

    With that said, I don’t disagree with you entirely. Wishful thinking is precisely how progress is made, and the picture you paint is a rosy one. It’s not impossible, and it’s worth working towards.

    …But I don’t know how likely it is — so we must be pragmatic. We should encourage technological development and social asabiyya in our communities and our nations. Importing low-IQ foreigners is the very last thing we should want to do. It’s counter-productive at best.

    Ur-mail Reply:

    The best way to evolve something along a particular vector is selectively with an eye towards the end goal. The best way to indiscriminately evolve nothing in particular is with random admixture – you will get the occasional pleasant surprise, but mostly you’ll get garbage. These two projects can subsist side-by-side, but my intuition is NRx valorizes the former over the latter.

    If you want to continue to debate possible futures based on your belief in the ultimate universal malleability of matter divorced from expediency, so be it. But most of the arguments for discernment and discrimination are made out of expediency. To escape potential collapse into some trough from our local maxima requires us to pursue expedient means to ends. We can hope that possible future innovations arrive in time to antiquate the current means, but it’s negligent to bank on that.

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 1:04 pm Reply | Quote
  • frank Says:

    Am I banned?

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    Slight spam-filter hold-up. (Happens quite regularly — try to stay calm.)

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 1:21 pm Reply | Quote
  • nnms Says:

    >Real fungibility is functional, but that takes work.
    And?
    >Pretend functionality is clearly dysfunctional
    Is creative destruction dysfunctional?

    [Reply]

    Posted on October 8th, 2016 at 3:21 pm Reply | Quote

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