What is the Alt-Right?

Topic of the week, it seems. XS will carve out a Chaos Patch space for targeted links on Sunday, but for impatient types, here’s a taster (1, 2, 3, 4).

This blog, I’m guessing predictably, takes a count me out position. Neoreaction, as I understand it, predicted the emergence of the Alt-Right as an inevitable outcome of Cathedral over-reach, and didn’t remotely like what it saw. Kick a dog enough and you end up with a bad-tempered dog. Acknowledging the fact doesn’t mean you support kicking dogs — or bad-tempered dogs. Maybe you’d be happy to see the dog-kicker get bitten (me too). That, however, is as far as it goes.

A short definition, that seems to me uncontroversial: The Alt-Right is the populist dissident right. Set theoretically, NRx is therefore grouped with it, but as a quite different thing. Another obvious conclusion from the definition: the Alt-Right is almost inevitably going to be far larger than NRx is, or should ever aim to be. If you think people power is basically great, but the Left have just been doing it wrong, the Alt-Right is most probably what you’re looking for (and NRx definitely isn’t).

For the Alt-Right, generally speaking, fascism is (1) basically a great idea, and (2) a meaningless slur concocted by (((Cultural Marxists))) to be laughed at. For NRx (XS version) fascism is a late-stage leftist aberration made peculiarly toxic by its comparative practicality. There’s no real room for a meeting of minds on this point.

As a consequence of its essential populism, the Alt-Right is inclined to anti-capitalism, ethno-socialism, grievance politics, and progressive statism. Its interest in geopolitical fragmentation (or Patchwork production) is somewhere between hopelessly distracted and positively hostile. Beside its — admittedly highly entertaining — potential for collapse catalysis, there’s no reason at all for the techno-commercial wing of NRx to have the slightest sympathy for it. Space for tactical cooperation, within the strategic framework of pan-secessionism, certainly exists, but that could equally be said of full-on Maoists with a willingness to break things up.

None of this should be taken as a competition for recruits. The Alt-Right will get almost all of them — it’s bound to be huge. From the NRx perspective, the Alt-Right is to be appreciated for helping to clean us up. They’re most welcome to take whoever they can, especially if they shut the door on the way out.

ADDED: Preserving this just to thrash myself senseless:


If you think God coming out as an Anime Nazi is going to stop me being obstreperous, you’ve no idea what you’re dealing with.

January 22, 2016admin 84 Comments »
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84 Responses to this entry

  • Brett Stevens Says:

    Kick a dog enough and you end up with a bad-tempered dog.

    This is why I enjoy what I call “the middle path”: on the left are the cucks, on the right are the extremists, and in the middle are those who simply want what works.

    What works is traditional conservatism: aristocracy, nationalism, free markets and a transcendental goal to society.

    For NRx (XS version) fascism is a late-stage leftist aberration made peculiarly toxic by its comparative practicality.

    National socialism and other authoritarian nationalism schemes are still within the house of liberalism: there is a System and everyone is equal, so we have the right dogma and we succeed.

    Aristocracy does away with systems, nationalism in its raw form does away with lack of culture, unmanaged markets reduce burdens, and a transcendental goal means that society is not merely a crass global shopping mall.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    I liked your reminding that alt right descends from alternative rock being a wnewfm 102.7 nyc listener from the early 70s im pretty sure wnew coined the phrase. its an apt analogy of the situation and maybe ought to be pushed that trying to define all of the alt right as WNs MRAs etc is like insisting that because both joy division tom waits and emmylou harris are alt rock they are anythging like each other. what they have in common is they are not foreigner rush boston etc.
    This might be a good time to remind you all you really ought to get some things settled because enquiring minds want to know. for instance heres my 100th attempt to get an answer not a single snarky reply yet. What would DE/NRX altright etc patriarchy look like? would it resemble islamic patriarchy 17th century european 1950s american. I keep asking because unless you have some sort of an answer your answer will be filled in by the left this is true of all the questions.

    [Reply]

    Brett Stevens Reply:

    What would DE/NRX altright etc patriarchy look like?

    Dark Enlightenment does not really suggest methods so much as cultural values. My guess is more like 1850s than 1950s.

    NRX does not address the topic directly, in my reading, but would probably acknowledge that life as a chaste person leading to family would be seen as a higher value in both social and economic markets.

    For me, the answer is cultural. A healthy society rewards complementary roles for men and women and a focus on family. Best to keep government out, but allow strong freedom of association so those who violate this can be shamed and excluded.

    Hope that answered your question, or at least got an answer started…

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    my point was not so much asking for an answer personally ive been on the right since the early 70s my point is you / we had better figure it out because the luxury of being vague has expired ,people are reaching out to trump in desperation, this is the collapse and youre not ready with any thing cogent to the average person. It seems you kids think theres going to be some total collapse and you will get a phone call never going to happen but if it did tomorrow youre not ready.

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    A patriarchy’s particulars, like its marriage customs, depend on the people in question and what they’re after. Personally, my Autiste LARP is techno-Hinduism where eugenecist scientists lord over a largely mechanized industrial society guarded by genetically engineered peacock-level Conan-types working for Rothtardian Blackwater. You’ll find many similar schemes, but involving TradCat fantasies of Ultramontaignism or the Republican Catlady Caucus. Really, nobody knows, because it is so abstract and far from being implemented in any real society that it’s nothing but speculation and sky castles.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 5:40 pm Reply | Quote
  • Anonymous Says:

    “For NRx (XS version) fascism is a late-stage leftist aberration made peculiarly toxic by its comparative practicality.”

    Have you written any comprehensive criticisms of Populism & Fascism/ National Socialism on the blog? I would like to read a more in-depth XS take on this subject.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    This is probably the most cogent statement to date. (More needed, certainly.)

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 5:40 pm Reply | Quote
  • Brett Stevens Says:

    In addition:

    I think “obstreperous” is a good mood for the non-Left right now.

    For years we have lost because we could not state, in simple terms, what we want.

    The answer is an end to the State, which requires strong leadership that is best done through aristocracy.

    To my mind, only self-deluding people pursue socialism, which fails in every form. The Nazis made it work, sort of, and with high costs in failure to achieve objectives.

    The point over it all is that the last amount of government is the best, which requires strong power, but also means an end to the managed state in which we now live.

    If the Right could come up with a simple goal (“a straight line, a goal”) it would have immeasurably better chances than it does as a resistance party.

    The Alt-Right is a big tent, however, and you’ll find many of them in line with these ideas, but they always get shouted down by the longtime White Nationalism elements, who conveniently are the people who always bash writers such as myself.

    In every human activity, demotism — counting warm bodies instead of right answers — destroys the hope of success. The Right is no different.

    [Reply]

    Erebus Reply:

    >”For years we have lost because we could not state, in simple terms, what we want.”

    (As far as the mainstream right is concerned, that’s a great understatement. I still don’t understand what they were ever trying to achieve.)

    It seems to me that the White Nationalists are the only ones who can state in simple terms what they want — and they are ascendant for precisely that reason. They’re growing in size and influence because what they want is fundamentally simple, is plausibly attainable, and because their ethno-populist interpretation of the world appeals to a very broad base of simple minds. One could go a step further and note that the goal they seek has already been attained — several times, in fact — so their path forward is obvious! Their antecedents have opened that door and have crossed the threshold. The handle turns, the door may open, and the same threshold may be crossed again.

    Forging a new aristocratic state, with an innate and transcendental mandate, rooted in laissez faire administrative policies… That would certainly be best of all, but the path which leads to such a thing is anything but clear, and it doesn’t seem to appeal to the masses. A lofty goal like that might simply lead nowhere at all.

    …And whatever you may think of their goals, you must admit that the WN arm of the alt-right is seizing the horizon of the present with force and grandeur. It knows which way the winds of destiny blow — and because WN is a populist movement, it’s not wholly incompatible with democracy, and it can therefore bring very forceful levers into play. Victory, after all, will not come about of itself…

    As for myself, I’d certainly prefer some sort of Moldbuggian corporate governance or XS-style fragmentation/patchwork. But I believe that our host is right: The Alt-Right is going to be huge — as a populist movement, and very likely as an explicitly White Nationalist one… and it’s likely going to carry us in its wake for a while.

    [Reply]

    Brett Stevens Reply:

    That would certainly be best of all, but the path which leads to such a thing is anything but clear, and it doesn’t seem to appeal to the masses.

    I am not sure the path is as obscured as you think. Power transfers happen all the time, and natural leaders among us are easily identified.

    The masses are generally politically inert and follow whatever they think will reward them. As democracy collapses, they will be less likely to object.

    [Reply]

    Erebus Reply:

    I sincerely hope you’re right.

    I would note a couple of things:

    1. Violent political upheaval is more likely than non-violent disintegration. If there’s going to be a power transfer, I’d bet that it takes place on the far side of a river of blood.

    2. In the event of violent political upheaval, the more warm bodies and the more popular support a side has, the more likely it is to prevail.

    And with that said:

    -Socialism, populism, and appeals to a sense of mass-identity are an easy sell. They resonate with people. (How many millions have fought and died for socialism and for fascism? Surely they weren’t all inert…)

    -Naked statism has never been more popular: The masses clamor for government initiatives to combat everything from “climate change” to “women in tech.” (Oh brother…) Even on the so-called “right”, there’s widespread support for investment in make-work “infrastructure” and government spending programs.

    -Libertarianism and small government have sadly proven a very tough sell. The metastatic bureaucratic state, and the nature of democracy itself, work against such things.

    -Even thoughtful and decent people like John C. Wright are irrationally hostile to monarchy and aristocracy. They have been raised to hate it, just as they’ve been raised to venerate Democracy. (If the spirit of this time has a name, it is “Equality”. Nobody is more disgusted by this than I am.)

    -Fascist and WN movements have a long history to draw upon, are superlatively accessible, have clear and simple goals, are not averse to violence, & have an extremely broad base of disaffected white males to tap. Things are only getting worse for that demographic. Like a beaten dog, they’ll either die with a whimper, or they will lash out. If they are lash out, they already know that white nationalism is their most fearsome memetic weapon. It sends their enemies into paroxysms of fear and anxiety.
    (The [frankly terrific] aesthetic of prior fascist and WN movements is important. Our modern art, music, and ritual have no sense of grandeur — to put it mildly. The heroic nature of fascist and WN art and ritual is a recruitment tool.)

    -Fascist and WN movements can plausibly co-opt democratic systems and win.
    …But optimal government, meritocracy, and capitalism doesn’t win any votes these days.

    I think that the best we can hope for is a dramatic and sudden collapse — one that leaves a vacuum in its wake. Otherwise, is not a putsch more likely?

    Xoth Reply:

    The US may be problematic in this sense, but there are modern examples where the monarchy has taken the reins in times of trouble (though then handed them back). In Europe, I believe we have post-Franco Spain and post-USSR Romania. The best example in Asia is probably Thailand, which I believe is thriving after defeating internal leftism.

    The president of the USA seems a bit of a figurehead in recent years (after Truman, mostly?), with the real power vested in the bureaucracy. But it still seems fairly straightforward, if so desired, to temporarily suspend certain amendments and raise up El Presidente for Life, Jeb Bush. In essence, if there’s might, there’s a way.

    Let me also note that Practical NRx (a contradiction in terms) probably will find it easier to decapitate and recapitate the gargantuan monstrosity of the permanent bureaucracy rather than killing it and raising a new one. Recall the troubles after dismissing the government in Iraq, for instance.

    Xoth Reply:

    I should also add that firing up anti-democratic sentiments leaves the door open for an anti-democratic progressive regime. So let’s be careful out there.

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Within NRx the growing prominance of theocratic types is really the same thing as the rise of the WNs in the Alt-Right, there are just way more people who will latch onto bullshit than otherwise.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 5:49 pm Reply | Quote
  • AnonymousCoward Says:

    Despite the desire of some on the alt-right for the movement to be PRO something, it seems that the only, uniting factor in the big-tent is that they’re (in cathedral-speak) racist. Anti-multiculturalism, against third-world brown people flooding, against parasitic ethnic group behaviors, against section 8, etc.

    In the alt-right parlance, let me white-knight against what you just wrote, and ask you, Land: if they get the racist agenda done without gulags, kike-ovens and helicopter-rides, but by trumpy wall-building, kebab-hostile immigration legislation, anti-jewish cultural attitudes, undoing section 8 legislation, do you still see them as equal to maoists?

    Or are you saying that you expect them to become actual WWII-style fascists, with all that that entails?

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    I should note that actual WW2 style fascism entailed a government less expansive and an economy less regulated than we have in any modern European state (barring maybe Liechtenstein). Also, Nazism was a very ‘special’ subvarient of Fascism, and even it was more economically ‘sound’ and less interested in mind control than modern USA policies. So, when talking about Fascists try to remember that basically everything you know about them is invented bullshit, some of it literally never happened and much is Cathedral distortion to the point of demonology. Also, don’t forget the several anti-war Fascists, which in Britain included prominent authors and statesmen before the Cathedral systemtically slandered them with what were 90% lies. Fascism was syncretic, and ultimately failed (too populist, for one) but in almost every way the actual history of fascist governments compares favorably to the USA and or Britain, and often comes out being better at keeping international law and telling the truth.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 6:46 pm Reply | Quote
  • Bob Says:

    The alt-right is a kind of right-wing postmodernism as described by Walter Truett Anderson:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism#History

    More recently, Walter Truett Anderson described postmodernism as belonging to one of four typological world views, which he identifies as either (a) Postmodern-ironist, which sees truth as socially constructed, (b) Scientific-rational, in which truth is found through methodical, disciplined inquiry, (c) Social-traditional, in which truth is found in the heritage of American and Western civilization, or (d) Neo-romantic, in which truth is found through attaining harmony with nature and/or spiritual exploration of the inner self.[11]

    Also see the diagram on page 14 of Anderson’s essay here, which captures the postmodern typology of the alt-right:

    https://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/shawth/Truth.pdf

    Anderson summarizes the postmodern context of the alt-right in the essay:

    “Postmodernity, then, is the age of over-exposure to otherness – because, in traveling, you put yourself into a different reality; because , as a result of immigration, a different reality comes to you; because, with no physical movement at all, only the relentless and ever-increasing flow of information, cultures interpenetrate. It becomes harder and harder to live out a life within the premodern condition of an undisturbed traditional society or even within the modern condition of a strong and well-organized belief system. All the major-league belief systems are still around, but all of them are in some kind of postmodern trouble: internal civil wars.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:12 pm Reply | Quote
  • John Says:

    Alt Right is the literal and figurative muscle of the dissident right.

    NRx is the elite theoretical wing.

    As adobes of different social classes, they will never be chummy. But if NRx is to ever to grace the halls of power, it will be on the heels of upheaval wrought by the Alt Right.

    [Reply]

    SVErshov Reply:

    as long NRx remains theoretical, anyone can implement NRx’s ideas and not necessery with idea to get into power, he can be in power already.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:12 pm Reply | Quote
  • Izak Says:

    Solid post. I appreciate the dispassionate tone.

    Can’t agree that fascism is leftist in nature. Moldbug argued that the Nazis were not leftist, in opposition to Jonah Goldberg (see Open Letter) — and I’d argue that Goldberg was being a groveling jackass when he made the claim. I’d argue that fascism has been more of a late-stage aberration from leftism that was always doomed to failure. And as Moldbug has pointed out in his posts on Carlyle, its failure was because it achieved rule by way of democracy, and democracy is basically rule by swine.

    I’m also not really sure we can draw any sweeping universal principles about fascism from a very, very small sample size in history– unless you’re finding some other analogous earlier historical examples and trying to draw correspondences, of which I’d be skeptical. I could see fascism (of some form or another) actually restoring order by way of democratic elections, but it would have to involve the leader A) swiftly getting rid of democracy, or drastically changing its rules, or at least setting up a strategy to render the rules irrelevant, and then B) doing things that piss a bunch of people off, like avoiding conflict and taking an amoral realist approach to statecraft, which would deflate the huge balloon of anticipation for climax/catharsis in the mass mind. The whole problem with democracy is that it’s completely unpredictable. Once you get rid of The Cathedral, or any kind of Cathedral, there is no real way to filter for competence — or any quality, for that matter. If the mass mind can’t be controlled by some external force, everything becomes a total crap shoot. The falcon cannot hear the falconer, etc.

    [Reply]

    Ahote Reply:

    A view which is popular in these parts.
    Between fascist opposition to the church and the aristocracy, and their support middle-of-the-road socialism and nationalist egalitarianism, what is it that actually makes them right-wing? Nothing. The programs outlined in The Fascist Manifesto and The Twenty-Five Points would fill Marx with glee.
    Many people tend to confuse fascism with a conservative dictatorship. Pinochet, Salazar and Franco are most certainly not the same thing as Hitler, Mussolini, and FDR.

    [Reply]

    Izak Reply:

    To put it very simply, I don’t think that libertarian free market economics is the ultimate expression of right-wing ideology. Some do. It is what it is.

    [Reply]

    Different T Reply:

    “To put it very simply, I don’t think that libertarian free market economics is the ultimate expression of right-wing ideology.”

    Agree. And add that “libertarian free market economics” are unlikely to ever be achieved, only a strange ideal.

    Watched a show on Netflix called “Cartel Land” (not great). Part of the story was about the “Autodefensa,” a group of civilians who took up arms and literally ran a cartel out of an area in Mexico. Then “Autodefensa” starts to devolve into a mix of different drives, eventually joining with the government and becoming a special unit or something. It ends with some of the new special unit group cooking meth. Interesting because the guy explaining why govt backed cartel-fighters are cooking meth says, “Someone is going to do it if we don’t. It’s not going to stop.”

    Ahote Reply:

    The right is worthless if it rejects capitalism, and NRx is nothing if not an attempt to make the world safe for capitalism. Capitalism has no feasible alternative, the fact has got nothing to do with libertarianism, and everything to do with the truth (you can have capitalism while fully rejecting libertarianism, not that libertarianism is all wrong; while libertarians are commonly accused of being autistic, those doing the accusing are just as commonly autists themselves; ignoring even more of the reality than libertarians, they treat the state like a Platonic form). Eventually, every heroic reactionary with a grain of brain realizes the fact – be it aristocrat traditionalist like Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn or military general like Augusto Pinochet. So, if it has been established that capitalism has no alternative which would you rather have: hampered markets, or markets at their best? The excuses for hampering markets are always, of course, either platitudes about “greater good,” or some pseudo-scientific drivel coming from Cathedralite economists, and the real reason simple – it’s either corruption or foolishness.

    Different T Reply:

    @ Ahote

    You don’t seem to comprehend what is being said.

    NRx theorizes that Right must use Austrian/Libertarian views on economic efficiency. This would lead to “laissez faire,” ultra-voluntarist markets. Some disagree with this.

    Capitalism has no feasible alternative, the fact has got nothing to do with libertarianism

    The “free market” capitalism from libertarianism, Austrian, ultra-voluntarist certainly has alternatives. We are in such an alternative iteration of capitalism now. And so are Singapore, Venezuela, and the Middle East.

    So, if it has been established that capitalism has no alternative which would you rather have: hampered markets, or markets at their best?

    This is a better question, but you’ve framed it to bias which sucks.

    The excuses for hampering markets are always, of course, either platitudes about “greater good,” or some pseudo-scientific drivel coming from Cathedralite economists, and the real reason simple – it’s either corruption or foolishness.

    Some of the time sure. Others, not so much.

    Different T Reply:

    @ Ahote

    Capitalism has no feasible alternative, the fact has got nothing to do with libertarianism

    The libertarian, ultra-voluntarist, Austrian version of “free market” capitalism certainly has alternatives. We are in such an iteration now; and so are Singapore, Venezuala, and the Middle East.

    So, if it has been established that capitalism has no alternative which would you rather have: hampered markets, or markets at their best?

    This is the better question, but you intentionally biased the frame. The above-mentioned “free-market” capitalism does not exist and AFAIK, has never existed. So the question would be, why? And then, does that type of ideal have a place in your worldview.

    The excuses for hampering markets are always, of course, either platitudes about “greater good,” or some pseudo-scientific drivel coming from Cathedralite economists, and the real reason simple – it’s either corruption or foolishness.

    Sure, sometimes. Other times, not. Again: “To put it very simply, I don’t think that libertarian free market economics is the ultimate expression of right-wing ideology. Some do. It is what it is.” – Izak

    xheimlichkeit Reply:

    But fascism arises out of Right-based discontent.

    I want to develop eventually that fascism is some sort of wormhole in the Right politics space, some issue of chaotic or turbulent mechanics. I mean, turbulence arises because some flow exceeds something else’s capability to carry (open a bathroom sink; if eddies form it’s because water can’t flow down in a linear fashion). Fascism comes up because Right values aren’t being correctly channeled by Right politics – so Leftish turbulence starts to take over.

    [Reply]

    Ahote Reply:

    I wouldn’t call fascist discontent right-wing. It’s populist, envy based, filled with victimology. Can any resentment fueled populist movement actually be right-wing? I mean they took eur jebz is all fine and well, but can they took eur gibz ever be considered right-wing?

    Looking at the political spectrum of the early 20th century, I would say that the far-right to right-wing were throne & altar reactionaries and traditionalist conservatives, centre-right to centre classical liberals, centre-left to left-wing social democrats and national syndicalists, far-left revolutionaries of various sorts. It’s crystal clear that fascists were revolutionary radicals. While reactionaries and conservatives were distributist-agrarian anti-capitalists, they mostly just wanted old privileges for clergy and nobility back, not totalitarian state, not revolutionary remaking of society (in fact, in most of the non-economic issues they were far less statist than classical liberals). As for fascists, they were very openly revolutionary and never wasted a chance to state their animosity toward throne & altar. What are those right-wing elements of fascism then, that is, other than being against abolishment of private property? If it’s their bits of social conservatism, you can easily find Communist parties that were far more socially conservative at times than fascists. It seems to me that the Admin is right in his description of fascism as pragmatic version of Communism.

    Izak Reply:

    Can you please explain why right-wing thinking cannot a priori be based on envy and victimology? Or is this just a dickwaving contest where we all set out to prove that we’re the most right-wing person of all time by perpetually redefining the word so that it automatically means “awesome” and “totally rad”?

    Ahote Reply:

    It looks to me as if those motivators necessarily inspire actions that lead to left-wing outcomes. That’s all.

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    There is a lot more to the right and Euro-warrior culture than what’s in your anti-usury pamphlets. Read something like Maurras or Wyndham Lewis to get a sense of the cultural and moral reaction that, being semi-religious, probably flies right over the head of Autistes who aren’t looking for it. Fascists embraced modernist, elitist, individualist, ‘right-wing’ trends in art, literature, historiography, and many of these people went into Fascism (not known it’d end up a compromise liberal government, which was far from obvious). There is a lot that is really appealing about Fascism, in fact, everything except their actual political program is superior to modern comfort-based faggotry that dominates American Cucks and liberals.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Also, the same goes for the Nazis, who were the most profoundly (actually) anti-Christian movement in modern European history. Liberals are Protties, Dixielanders are Catholics, crypto-secular or literally; Nazism is frickin’ Hindu and all attempts to reconcile it with Germanic Christianity were farsical and abandoned. I do happen to agree that a non-capitalist right is fucking retarded, but even that isn’t as obvious as NRx often believes – there is literally no such thing as ‘better’ or ‘growing’ economy as these violate all sorts of laws of economics that make such comparisons entirely subjective, maybe inter-subjective, but by no means ‘objective’. ‘Human flourishing’ is not a real thing, whether libertarians, reactionaries or liberals want to use it as a rationalization for their preferences. I like techno-commercial civilization and what it makes possible, but most humans could actually be happier living as fucking tribal apes, which is what they always try to force us to do.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:22 pm Reply | Quote
  • Orthodox Says:

    For the Alt-Right, generally speaking, fascism is (1) basically a great idea, and (2) a meaningless slur concocted by (((Cultural Marxists))) to be laughed at. For NRx (XS version) fascism is a late-stage leftist aberration made peculiarly toxic by its comparative practicality. There’s no real room for a meeting of minds on this point.

    ———
    Many in the alt-right (as I conceive of it being a large tent) come out the libertarian/paleoconservative side which places fascism firmly on the left and as a democratic phenomena. There are people dubbed alt-right for holding “taboo” ideas on HBD. It would be interesting to do a poll because I would guess the vast majority of people who might call themselves would either agree with something close to your definition, or might say something like “never heard that before” because they are 17 years old.

    If you restrict it to populism, then I definitely see a drift as people get sucked back into democracy and the temptation of power.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:32 pm Reply | Quote
  • TexasCapitalist Says:

    Admin, on Trump: Trump isn’t a fascist obviousl, and barely qualifies as a populist and only because he is in America. If he gets the nomination he will inevitably turn far towards the center. Once he gets elected there is a good chance he doesn’t deport anywhere near 11 million, doesn’t build a wall, doesn’t do 1/10th of what righties want him to. If he governs as another George W bush, Bill Clinton, hell, maybe even like Obama to an extent, Democracy will be discredited to the center right and the center left, maybe even to the far right that seems to have been enamored with it recently.

    A Trump win has a great chance of Democracy being discredited for everyone, and I’m surprised you haven’t seen this yet.

    [Reply]

    Bettega Reply:

    A Trump win will discredit the Alt-Right most of all, once he doesn’t do anything he promised. Their full commitment to him is like a suicide pact.

    [Reply]

    Xoth Reply:

    More precisely, he’s the one chamber of the gun which may be empty. By all means, spin the chamber and elect Hillary or Rubio or someone.

    [Reply]

    frank Reply:

    Trump is a very competent and intelligent man –very possibly– influenced by race and economic realists. I don’t think Trump presidency will resemble anything that came before him. Coming from deep business world, he has an intuitive understanding of human nature vis-a-vis corporate organization. He’ll play the USG like a violin. Just watch. I would even say there’s a good chance he’ll declare strategic bankruptcy for the WashCorp, finally liquidating it, à la Moldbug.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:38 pm Reply | Quote
  • What if the alternative Right took over? Says:

    […] That leads to conflicts such as the following analysis from Outside In: […]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 8:57 pm Reply | Quote
  • grey enlightenment Says:


    None of this should be taken as a competition for recruits. The Alt-Right will get almost all of them — it’s bound to be huge. From the NRx perspective, the Alt-Right is to be appreciated for helping to clean us up. They’re most welcome to take whoever they can, especially if they shut the door on the way out.

    The ‘alt right’ is almost too diverse for cohesion, besides a shared rejection of democracy and other aspects of liberalism and modernity, as well as antipathy towards ‘mainstream’ conservatism. But where the similarities end. White nationalists may not get along with NRx-ers. Commercialism don’t always jive with populist/ethnocentric leaning groups. Christian reactionaries and agnostics may butt heads.

    [Reply]

    frank Reply:

    Alt-right is already in an advance stage of its demotic metamorphosis. There’s an unprecedented influx of “newfags” into alt-right that haven’t read any reactionary stuff. They’re not sex realists; they are slightly anti-capitalist and egalitarians in a nationalistic setup. Many of these types have no issue whatsoever with democracy. A short visit to /pol/ should illustrate this effect. Libertarian leaning /pol/ is thoroughly obsolete. As the waves of newbies keep coming, alt-right will be thoroughly claimed by literal fascists, i.e. race realist socialists.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    This is just a problem with populism in general, I mean, most people are basically fucking brainless mud puppets like the Gnostics said. This is why I am much more inclined to Galt’s Gulch than the Absolutist idea, the masses can not be ‘reformed’, they need to be drastically reduced. I often wish Alex Jones was right that Satanist population control elites wanted to wipe out most of the planet, that would be a badass Stirner-level troll that is unfortunately not true. Ever notice that InfoWars nightmare worlds look a lot like a world where Nazism is not only still around, but actually true? It’s seriously a mirror of Hollywood Nazism, only they hate it, whereas Fantasy 14/88 Nazis presumably supported it. In any case, I would vastly prefer a eugenic anti-natalism and cognitive elite collapse of mass society to – this.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 9:42 pm Reply | Quote
  • What is the Alt-Right? | Reaction Times Says:

    […] Source: Outside In […]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 10:20 pm Reply | Quote
  • michael Says:

    I think the WNs and DE/NRX/ALTRIGHT need to jointly understand there is no possible success with socialism populism but capitalism but serve civilization while not being allowed to destroy it. That there is no possible civilizational success with multicultural citizenry [guest workers rules to be negotiated] european peoples are particularly susceptible to its maladies so by whatever name white nationalism is the foundation of any successful nation. Beyond that many practical questions need to be answered and soon or they will be answered for all of us. what could reasonably replace democracy if it can not be fixed. vague talk of crypto locks and kings is bullshit, and laughable. I think using tech and data to outsource govt down to a harmless size might make democracy irrelevant but whatever. I keep asking what would our patriarchy actually look like my daughter wants to know. what to do about christianity you know that judeo leftist religion that we think of as out conservative social glue how can it be demilitarized for good or can it.How do we keep capitalism from harming civilization without weakening it. and a thousand other questions.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Some Alt-Righters are perfectly fine with capitalism, or at least much less regulation and management than presently exists. Only a few of them (Greg Johnson) are outright anti-capitalist. However, their political goals are largely emotion based and identarian politics and thus logic like free trade can get abandoned for vague hand-wavey shit about ‘losing our jobs’. The ones who are anti-capitalist probably can not be convinced, because they have no talent/interest in economics (or they would not be anti-capitalists).

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 22nd, 2016 at 10:38 pm Reply | Quote
  • Grotesque Body Says:

    Alt-Right is vulgar, NRx is not. This is pretty much all there is to say on the subject and anything beyond that is just the same information dressed in more elaborate verbiage.

    [Reply]

    4candles Reply:

    That’s the HRx differentiation. NRx doesn’t reject populism for its aesthetic ugliness, but its lack of aesthetics in toto.

    [Reply]

    Grotesque Body Reply:

    I’d say the inevitable philosophical poverty of vulgar AR is a stronger indictment than that of aesthetics, which presupposes philosophy.

    Unless HRx has changed a great deal in the time I’ve stopped paying attention to it (mostly because its sources eg Carlyle, Spengler, Evola haven’t changed and aren’t going to) I wouldn’t ascribe to it vulgarity as an essential feature.

    By the way, I don’t imply a value judgement in differentiating between NRx and AR in terms of vulgarity. The vulgarity of AR renders it vulnerable to internal incoherence, high time preference ADHD and subversion by demotic elements, but also grants it access to a mode of humour and meme production that necessarily escapes NRx computer programmer ubermenschen.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 12:20 am Reply | Quote
  • John Morris Says:

    Forging a new aristocratic state, with an innate and transcendental mandate, rooted in laissez faire administrative policies… That would certainly be best of all, but the path which leads to such a thing is anything but clear, and it doesn’t seem to appeal to the masses. A lofty goal like that might simply lead nowhere at all.

    The mandate seems the key. The old Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven. You don’t convince the masses with reason but with emotion, stories, a Narrative. If we had one to justify the system you describe, one simple enough for the masses, we would be 90% of the way to establishing it.

    [Reply]

    Different T Reply:

    “with an innate and transcendental mandate”

    So you believe there is such a thing? And if you thought someone did hold it, how long into them doing things you disagree with until your belief is withdrawn?

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Probably one problem the Techno-Commercialists, Gray Tribes and ‘moderate reactionaries’ have is that we’re too inclined to braininess and truthiness as a reflexive morality that we basically can neither communicate nor be bothered to try to communicate with the lumpenproles. In other words, to make reaction appealing to the masses you have to lie, and I would rather have the masses burn in Hell than lie to change the opinion of some stupid shitbag in a Wal-Mart.

    [Reply]

    Aeroguy Reply:

    Lies and exterminations are both unnecessary. Under sane management and private ownership, proles as a whole become an enormous net asset (Exit? Think corporate, you’re not worried about being forced to stay but being forced to leave, and not to worry too much if you are exiled, there are businesses that specialize in acquiring and reselling distressed assets. For those in positions requiring greater levels of agency, coercion is less effective in enhancing productivity thus affording greater freedom of movement and benefits for staying put. For the most part the limitations of exit will probably look similar to exiting military service).

    Convert those who hold (or could hold) real power, from there status and consensus of opinion flows, everyone else falls in line, the shop keeps replace their rainbow flags for aristocratic crests. You take prole opinions far too seriously, more seriously than they do, their political opinions are unsophisticated parroting because deep down they understand their opinions are irrelevant; it’s a fashion accessory, nothing more. There may come a time when being fat dumb and happy doesn’t cut it, but for the time being they’re a sizable niche. Gnon will make us leaner smarter and meaner and perhaps even the relative distribution of such will get tighter but hierarchy will stay with us always.

    Don’t judge the masses too harshly, they’re without proper leadership and thus becoming feral. Also note that nothing here precludes eugenics and mass sterilizations (or enhancements for kids, genes>parenting after all) to make room for the enhanced next generation. I just don’t like seeing capital assets getting wreaked to pieces in the absence of stewardship.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    .I really don’ty disagree with anything you wrote, except that it is a Master morality, and Master morality is a Janus with slave morality. I much prefer a society which does away with the need for simple apes who have to be managed, and who have no real ‘culture’ beyond that imposed on them. Everything that dumb/simple people do should be replaced with machinery, so that society can consist of nothing but ubermensch and autistes without resulting in starvation. This also gets rid of the need for a ‘Cathedral’ because there are no more hordes of dumbasses to defend or use against each other. I was not suggesting it would be practical or desirable to actually nuke Detroit, but rather a gradual IQ and legal culture apartheid (which most NRx is already onboard with) combined with an attitude of indifference toward really shitty people who just push buttons and cause problems. I know the masses are not ‘responsible’ for their actions, but that’s a problem – people without agency are a fucking plague on the specie

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 3:47 am Reply | Quote
  • Wilbur Hassenfus Says:

    Of course there’s a lot of different ideas about how to treat a patient who’s falling from a balcony, but I’m confident that you’ve got one of the better ones.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 3:53 am Reply | Quote
  • Mark Christensen Says:

    Altright structure as it exists is based on status. As numbers surge, spiralling occurs. Edginess spirals are still holiness spirals. Via the Trump phenomenon, the Altright seems to be becoming the protest vanguard of white vaisyas. It remains to be seen if that wins over the last remaining white Blue Tribe loyalists like white blue collar union workers.

    Vaisya protest movements either get squashed, or coopted, or (rarely) joined by rebellious brahmins and optimates who turn it into a new regime (this was the case with fascism). The brahmins seem mostly opposed and the Koch-style optimates need immigration too much to fully commit to the Altright borders program. On the other hand, maybe they’ll decide to make a big show over Mexican deportations while quietly funnelling in cheap labour (skilled and unskilled) from elsewhere. The problem with high time-preference mass movements is that they’re easily fooled by that sort of thing. NRx seems low time preference enough that in the face of a total Trump victory with deportations and walls, it will understand that the threats to Civilization still abound. Reproduction is still low. The cult of Social Progress still holds our brahmins’ minds.

    I’m not convinced that the Altright is actually the “muscle” vs NRx’s “brains”. Internet loudmouthing by anonymous twitter accounts is good meme warfare, but it’s not muscle. 500 men marching on city hall is muscle (and no, bar brawls by skinheads is not an approximation). When the Altright has enough structure to muster that, I’ll start buying it. Europe’s dissident Right vastly outperforms America’s on the muscle front.

    [Reply]

    John Reply:

    I would posit that in 4GW and beyond, meme warfare is muscle.

    As for the meat space variant, America does lag Europe, though it lacks large Muslims groups to directly oppose. The potential is there in America. Just look at any Trump rally.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Just look at Batman movies or Conan novels or Westerns. America is a hotbed of ultra-rightist and warrior-aristocracy/barbarian tendencies scarcely concealed by humanist rhetoric or made to appear ridiculous by pornographic parody, yet the basic idea of a superhero is that when one finds “injustice” one violently dislodges its masticatory equipment, and if everyone turns on you, to Hell with them.

    [Reply]

    michael Reply:

    if you travel out of the US cities you will find we are armed to the teeth and just waiting for it to start america is o the brink of civil war I live both in NYC and rural idaho and have watched in my cross country travels over the past 25 years a arms build up that would blow the minds of the average urbanite. Our military is also made up largely of these rural young men both current and former. what america lacks is a consensus on what should be done who exactly needs killing fortunately the left is helping clarify the situation more every day

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    It lacks not only consensus, but also agency. We have a huge underclass of lumpenproles, including whites, and domesticated “men”. Most people can’t even conceive of making hard decisions without having the answer given to them by some ‘authority’, and that is the main reason we haven’t already had another civil war. As many have pointed out King George had nothing on the FedGov in regards to white American grievances.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Europe’s Right outperforms the American and it is STILL Cucked. I see the failure of the Right to be related to Christian morality memes and ignorant identity politics (Croats and Serbs need to shut up or get gassed at this point), one of which trends towards Universalism and the other plays right into the Great Game strategy of Globalistas, ie get all the crazies riled up so its easier to take over (at least that’s their theory). Now my analysis isn’t particularly original, but I do think that the rise of a ‘hard’ right, a sort of Anarcho-Fascism, is just not compatible with the religious or political culture of basically anyone in Europe; they’re all either pussies, unemployed, or religious nuts.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 5:36 am Reply | Quote
  • The Establishment And The Alt-Right | Says:

    […] the second possibility, we agree with Nick Land that “If you think people power is basically great, but the Left have just been doing it […]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 1:31 pm Reply | Quote
  • Thrasymachus Says:

    Techno-capitalism is what we have, right now. The only thing we have that bothers neo-reactionary capitalists too much is political correctness, but that’s all it is, a bother.

    [Reply]

    admin Reply:

    You think Cathedral governance provides an optimal capital escalation environment? Seriously?

    [Reply]

    Different T Reply:

    Serious question.

    Who needs “optimal?” Especially when what you are discussing would mean a completely restructured everything. Risk much?

    Economics won’t save you from your conclusions about the purpose of life.

    [Reply]

    Ahote Reply:

    That’s the type of argument right there with USSR fell apart because it practiced too much capitalism and capitalism causes poverty.

    [Reply]

    D. Reply:

    Technology is “what we have, right now” and have had for a long time, or more precisely a non-trivial rate of technological development. For ideologies hoping to return to a social system dependent on an earlier level of technology, the question of capitalism versus socialism versus corporatism etc. is irrelevant. Their only feasible hope is a catastrophic collapse that reverts technology to an earlier state and keeps it there. NRx isn’t such an ideology, and therefore differences in economic and political structures are meaningful to NRx.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 4:47 pm Reply | Quote
  • low income low status low brow juvenile reader Says:

    as per National Review, the alt-right is not alt- anymore, it’s just “the right”. everybody else is a cuck

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 5:47 pm Reply | Quote
  • Good Comment at Xenosystems | More Right Says:

    […] From Nick Land’s place: […]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 6:01 pm Reply | Quote
  • an inanimate aluminum tube Says:

    It’s funny how the Alt-Right got the Right-Wing CEO King that NRX was looking for. Not that we really did anything, other than try and meme him into existence.

    But meanwhile, the Tech CEOs who were supposed to save us turned out to be Cathedral affiliated villains, helping Muslim refugees rape young women over in Germany.

    Remember when somebody wanted to put the Google Guy in charge of America? It’d be Merkel 2.0.

    It’s been an interesting few years.

    [Reply]

    an inanimate aluminum tube Reply:

    Oh and the CEO-King turned out to be a jock, not a nerd.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    As is inevitable. Male leaders, even extremely brainy ones, tend to be masculine to a degree that is exagerrated. Of course, it’s Lefty/Juden generated memes that gave us ‘large, well-formed Goyim are all morons’, which even talking to Schwarzenegger will dispel (I’m not saying the guy is a genius, but he’s far more intelligent than most people you meet at random).

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 23rd, 2016 at 9:40 pm Reply | Quote
  • Mark Citadel Says:

    In the general sense, (not the colloquial usage which I would argue does point to a more WN focus, largely spearheaded by NPI), the Alt-Right includes the Reactosphere, the Manosphere, /pol/, anything dissident from Modernity, but not really including the ‘yesterdays news’ crowd of hardcore National Socialists. The Alt-Right types who roleplay fashy imagery are largely using it more as a memetic weapon than a statement of political self-placement.

    I would define the Reactosphere in general, of which NRx is the largest definable subset, as the ivory towers of the Alt-Right. We essentially vacuum in the correctly oriented in spirit, high IQ people from the rest of the Alt-Right and radicalize them to a maximum, aristocratically rightist level. The rest (being the majority) remain at peasant level, concerning themselves with the study of one pet issue usually (race or sex), and they can be to varying degrees ‘harnessed’ towards our own, better informed, ends.

    As the Alt-Right grows, we grow, all be it at a slower rate, at the heart of it. Kind of like an Ur core I guess.

    [Reply]

    R.J. Moore II Reply:

    Re: Fashies in the Alt-Right, putting aside hardcore 14/88 trolling, tend to be syncretic, often small-r republicans (hard right republicanism is, of course, essential to fascism, though not identical with it). They tend to be more favorable toward the paramilitary and anti-leftist tendencies of the Fascisti and even the NS (Grey Johnson) are not Hollywood-Hitler types. Also, George Lincoln Rockwell (an actual old Nazi troll) was a firm believer in free enterprise and against the police state. And real Nazis hated cops, infamously. In fact, real fascists/Nazis are actually a lot more reasonable than the Satanic Zombie Army that most people (especially the American right) would like to believe. I see nothing wrong with most of what the Italian Fascists did that the liberal government wasn’t already doing. Paramilitary gangs to beat up commies? Fire all the liberal professors? Sign me up for a black tshirt.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 24th, 2016 at 1:04 am Reply | Quote
  • R.J. Moore II Says:

    Whether Alt-Right or NRx I still see the whole thing as driven by fake ‘values’, a projection of particular preferences onto nature. The Alt-Right and NRx are less inclined to full-blown pseudoscience (yet Cliodynamics and Collapsitarian shit abounds, and is nonsense as far as I am concerned) and also more attractive in the sense that I like Nietzsche, supertechnology and Hinduism. I really don’t see any answers to Stirner (because there are none, you play Tribal or you don’t give a shit) but even when NRx wants to Edgelord it still tends to cater too much to anthropic demographics. I mean, the masses should not be ‘governed’ or whatever, they should be left to die in their shitty Detroit hellholes after we Shrug ourselves to Singapore, I am not interested in ‘good government’, I’m interested in massive eugenics without pretense toward the well being of fucking apetards.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 24th, 2016 at 6:28 am Reply | Quote
  • R.J. Moore II Says:

    @ If it comes to a river of Goyim blood I think a lot of liberals are going to be surprised, because history has shown us that angry white men – even ones not professionally acquainted with violence- are basically the most dangerous people in the world. Whether USA or Europe these Blue tribers are playing with fire, their white base may well ‘flip’ if pushed too hard, and the non-liberals will be terrifyingly effective at Kristalnachting the fuck out of people who have power solely due to political-ideological gaming (ie, HerpDerps running bureaucracies and getting there being leftist trolls). Blue is so used to everyone being pacifistic, I think it’s quite possible these dudes are tempting Anudda Shoah which they will not realise until it burns them up.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 24th, 2016 at 6:38 am Reply | Quote
  • R.J. Moore II Says:

    @Izak Righty shouldn’t get sucked into envy and victimology because strong men with agency aren’t victims, they’re victors. Envy and Victimology makes no sense in a heuristic that puts individual heroism and willfull dominance over man as nature as the core of its political aesthetic.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 24th, 2016 at 7:16 am Reply | Quote
  • vxxc2014 Says:

    Perhaps the Alt-Right isn’t necessarily anti-capitalist. Perhaps they don’t like mortgage of their civilization to backstop insane Trotskyite bankers gambling and the wars that have already ensued and the more massive conflicts already begun at a low level.

    We don’t have a market in the West. Or in China. Or in Japan. We have socialized high margin gambling.

    Derivatives at $552 Trillion. As of 12/15. bis.org/derstats.

    Finance you know is the most consistently Radical institution in the world. Order?

    Admin answers these questions in The Deal [next post].

    The Deal is we’ll code your fortunes and society so the entire world and everything in it along with everyone is shares in a giant hedge fund. Now they may get some psychopaths to toss them some money. But it’s no path to power, it doesn’t even get you in the lobby of power.

    Power over people requires people. Whether by arms or votes.

    [Reply]

    Posted on January 24th, 2016 at 11:24 pm Reply | Quote
  • This Week in Reaction (2016/01/24) – The Reactivity Place Says:

    […] topics for a while now. He delivers a data rich answer to What is the Alt-Right? Nick Land asks the exact same question, but sees it purely as a populist (and therefore heterodox) […]

    Posted on January 26th, 2016 at 8:21 pm Reply | Quote
  • (N) G. Eiríksson Says:

    >This is why I enjoy what I call “the middle path”: on the left are the cucks, on the right are the extremists, and in the middle are those who simply want what works.

    +1

    [Reply]

    Posted on August 18th, 2016 at 7:42 pm Reply | Quote
  • #AltRightMeans: The Alternative Right Is A Two-Headed Dog Says:

    […] The current media focus on the Alternative Right is an attempt to subvert it, not celebrate it. As one sensible critic wrote: […]

    Posted on August 25th, 2016 at 3:29 pm Reply | Quote
  • #AltRightMeans: What Is The Alternative Right? Says:

    […] “What is the Alt-Right?” (Outside In, 2016): […]

    Posted on August 25th, 2016 at 4:48 pm Reply | Quote
  • O que é a Alt-Right? – Outlandish Says:

    […] Original. […]

    Posted on November 11th, 2016 at 9:45 pm Reply | Quote
  • Ben Shapiro defines the alt-right | Marginal Restoration Says:

    […] right’s elitist, anti-democratic faction. This would probably be an ideological taxonomy more amenable to Nick Land. But I […]

    Posted on November 28th, 2016 at 6:15 pm Reply | Quote
  • SVErshov Says:

    general public hardly can understand such obscure concepts as alt-right by its ideological taxonomy, or by what it is ‘not’, or against. they will try to understand it by its origin.

    [Reply]

    Posted on November 29th, 2016 at 7:31 am Reply | Quote
  • Total Bro Says:

    A primitive fertility cult.

    [Reply]

    Posted on April 12th, 2017 at 2:04 am Reply | Quote

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