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	<title>Comments on: White to Red</title>
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	<description>Involvements with reality</description>
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		<title>By: Peter A. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30521</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter A. Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That Frost article is very interesting in conjunction with Jonathan Haidt&#039;s discussion of WEIRD (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic) culture in _The Righteous Mind_.  Haidt traces this back to about the 16th century.  You don&#039;t need to travel to India to find a culture that&#039;s radically different from that on the University of Pennsylvania campus.  Just walk a few blocks to a working-class neighborhood.  But Haidt is mainly talking about whether it&#039;s morally permissible to eat the family dog if it&#039;s hit by a car, and to a lesser extent about individualism.  How much individualism is the right amount?  Too much at the local level and people get alienated, and become prey for demagogues at the national level.  Going beyond Haidt, it seems that if there is too little individualism, it becomes impossible to accumulate capital and have economic development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Frost article is very interesting in conjunction with Jonathan Haidt&#8217;s discussion of WEIRD (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic) culture in _The Righteous Mind_.  Haidt traces this back to about the 16th century.  You don&#8217;t need to travel to India to find a culture that&#8217;s radically different from that on the University of Pennsylvania campus.  Just walk a few blocks to a working-class neighborhood.  But Haidt is mainly talking about whether it&#8217;s morally permissible to eat the family dog if it&#8217;s hit by a car, and to a lesser extent about individualism.  How much individualism is the right amount?  Too much at the local level and people get alienated, and become prey for demagogues at the national level.  Going beyond Haidt, it seems that if there is too little individualism, it becomes impossible to accumulate capital and have economic development.</p>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30520</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alrenous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30520</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obligatory &lt;a href=&quot;http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Moldbug link&lt;/a&gt;. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;And what is communism?  As a political formula?  Perhaps we can define it, with a nice 20th-century social-science jargon edge, as nonempathic altruism.  Or for a sharper pejorative edge, callous altruism.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obligatory <a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html" rel="nofollow">Moldbug link</a>. </p>
<blockquote><p>And what is communism?  As a political formula?  Perhaps we can define it, with a nice 20th-century social-science jargon edge, as nonempathic altruism.  Or for a sharper pejorative edge, callous altruism.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, that&#039;s a highly relevant reference. I should have mentioned it. My sense is that the mainstream &lt;a href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324688404578545523824389986&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;usage&lt;/a&gt; differs in emphasis from the specifically ethnomasochistic &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amren.com/features/2012/07/pathological-altruism/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s a highly relevant reference. I should have mentioned it. My sense is that the mainstream <a href="http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324688404578545523824389986" rel="nofollow">usage</a> differs in emphasis from the specifically ethnomasochistic <a href="http://www.amren.com/features/2012/07/pathological-altruism/" rel="nofollow">one</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the latter, why wouldn&#039;t we find it in Lagos?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the latter, why wouldn&#8217;t we find it in Lagos?</p>
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		<title>By: Puzzle Pirate</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30486</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Puzzle Pirate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 02:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;It seems to explain a lot of what we’re seeing, doesn’t it?&quot;

The phrase &quot;Pathological Altruism&quot; is another term you may want to look up.  There&#039;s even an entier academic books by that name.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It seems to explain a lot of what we’re seeing, doesn’t it?&#8221;</p>
<p>The phrase &#8220;Pathological Altruism&#8221; is another term you may want to look up.  There&#8217;s even an entier academic books by that name.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Warburton</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30457</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Warburton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30457</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Turns out the Spivak seminar was cancelled. We were on to Bataille and Pineal Eye instead. The senior lecturer  read a quote from Thirst of Annihiliation (on aztec sacrifice) and Luciana gave some background/nostalgia regarding the CCRU. Ha. Your phantom still haunts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turns out the Spivak seminar was cancelled. We were on to Bataille and Pineal Eye instead. The senior lecturer  read a quote from Thirst of Annihiliation (on aztec sacrifice) and Luciana gave some background/nostalgia regarding the CCRU. Ha. Your phantom still haunts.</p>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alrenous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately, guilt instead of shame is all but necessary for science. New facts are always shameful. They contradict the socially-acceptable beliefs by definition. Planck barely believed in quantization himself. I can&#039;t imagine he would have published the idea if it would have shamed him or shamed his peers, unless he would have felt even more guilty for being dishonest.

To confirm Frost&#039;s evidence for pre-historical guilt, do you think Christ would have been able to shame the Romans into feeling guilty if they weren&#039;t pre-disposed to feeling guilty in the first place?

-

Frost is confirming my hypothesis (stated here http://www.xenosystems.net/deeper-darkness/#comment-28452) that the Black Death accelerated certain social changes, rather than caused them. 

It&#039;s nice, because I was simply doing pattern recognition. Clark reveals that the industrial revolution wasn&#039;t a phase change, it only appeared that way to star-struck observers. Similarly, only Petrarch though the 1600s had an enlightenment, it was another case of later, star-struck observers. It seemed likely that the Black Death would make a bump on a graph that these same romantic idiots would blow out of proportion, and lo, it was so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, guilt instead of shame is all but necessary for science. New facts are always shameful. They contradict the socially-acceptable beliefs by definition. Planck barely believed in quantization himself. I can&#8217;t imagine he would have published the idea if it would have shamed him or shamed his peers, unless he would have felt even more guilty for being dishonest.</p>
<p>To confirm Frost&#8217;s evidence for pre-historical guilt, do you think Christ would have been able to shame the Romans into feeling guilty if they weren&#8217;t pre-disposed to feeling guilty in the first place?</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>Frost is confirming my hypothesis (stated here <a href="http://www.xenosystems.net/deeper-darkness/#comment-28452" rel="nofollow">http://www.xenosystems.net/deeper-darkness/#comment-28452</a>) that the Black Death accelerated certain social changes, rather than caused them. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s nice, because I was simply doing pattern recognition. Clark reveals that the industrial revolution wasn&#8217;t a phase change, it only appeared that way to star-struck observers. Similarly, only Petrarch though the 1600s had an enlightenment, it was another case of later, star-struck observers. It seemed likely that the Black Death would make a bump on a graph that these same romantic idiots would blow out of proportion, and lo, it was so.</p>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30426</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alrenous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30426</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hypothesis fits.

Heh, late Rome let the Outside In...but went for ethnic Outside rather than dark knowledge, and it at least contributed to the empire&#039;s suicide. 

By contrast, Chinese civilization has fallen several times, but since they never choose the method of forgiving the Other for being Other, it has risen again in the same place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hypothesis fits.</p>
<p>Heh, late Rome let the Outside In&#8230;but went for ethnic Outside rather than dark knowledge, and it at least contributed to the empire&#8217;s suicide. </p>
<p>By contrast, Chinese civilization has fallen several times, but since they never choose the method of forgiving the Other for being Other, it has risen again in the same place.</p>
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		<title>By: fotrkd</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fotrkd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 04:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[And yet guilt creeps into the psyche of a blogger... so what am I missing? :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet guilt creeps into the psyche of a blogger&#8230; so what am I missing? <img src="http://www.xenosystems.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.xenosystems.net/white-to-red/#comment-30387</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Dec 2013 04:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.xenosystems.net/?p=1722#comment-30387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gift giving is huge in shame cultures. It&#039;s extraordinary how much Chinese consumerism is driven by complex networks of face-accounted exchange. If you failed to present your potential business partner with a sufficiently-luxurious carton of cigarettes? -- I don&#039;t see any real avenue for guilt to creep into that at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gift giving is huge in shame cultures. It&#8217;s extraordinary how much Chinese consumerism is driven by complex networks of face-accounted exchange. If you failed to present your potential business partner with a sufficiently-luxurious carton of cigarettes? &#8212; I don&#8217;t see any real avenue for guilt to creep into that at all.</p>
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